Matrix Games Forums

StormingKiwi wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:10 am While I can see how this part of the OP quoted below is slightly confusing, I am advocating for a report of military strength to be total (number), not average (number)

StormingKiwi wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 9:25 pm Something I'd like to see in DW2 is a number for how many entities the military strength is divided by.

E.g. is it a single ship with a strength of 100, or a group of 8 escorts?

Any suggestions to phrase this better? The sticking point seems to be "how many entities the military strength is divided by", which should probably read something like "how many entities the military strength is spread between"

You wanted a Total Number and a Count of ships.
No idea what you were planning to do with that information, but I am betting it requires some kind of average.

zgrssd wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:39 am
You wanted a Total Number and a Count of ships.
No idea what you were planning to do with that information, but I am betting it requires some kind of average.

How much do you want to bet?

StormingKiwi wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:40 pm

zgrssd wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:39 am
You wanted a Total Number and a Count of ships.
No idea what you were planning to do with that information, but I am betting it requires some kind of average.

How much do you want to bet?

An average amount.

But you can show me that formula you use, which uses both figures yet does not involving fleet strenght by number

zgrssd wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:44 am An average amount.

But you can show me that formula you use, which uses both figures yet does not involving fleet strenght by number

Read the thread again.

StormingKiwi wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 9:25 pm Something I'd like to see in DW2 is a number for how many entities the military strength is divided by.

E.g. is it a single ship with a strength of 100, or a group of 8 escorts?

Okay, you get the information of "800 Fleet Power" and "8 Ships". What will you do with it?
Figure out the average strenght per ship is 100?
Or something else?

zgrssd wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:34 pm That question does not deal with the accuracy of the combat strenght figures. So why do you keep talking about it?

Then why did you ask for it?!?

zgrssd wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:37 pm

StormingKiwi wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 9:25 pm Something I'd like to see in DW2 is a number for how many entities the military strength is divided by.

E.g. is it a single ship with a strength of 100, or a group of 8 escorts?

Okay, you get the information of "800 Fleet Power" and "8 Ships". What will you do with it?
Figure out the average strenght per ship is 100?
Or something else?

Number of ships is important as it will give an indication of the total stamina of the fleet not just it's firepower. Together those two figure give a pretty good overall picture of a particular fleet strength.

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:35 am

zgrssd wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:34 pm That question does not deal with the accuracy of the combat strenght figures. So why do you keep talking about it?

Then why did you ask for it?!?

I was replying to a quesiton. One I did not ask.

Number of ships is important as it will give an indication of the total stamina of the fleet not just it's firepower. Together those two figure give a pretty good overall picture of a particular fleet strength.

The show me.

What does "800 Fleet Power" and "8 Ships" tell you?

Why not three numbers:
10 - 300 - 800
Weakest ship, strongest ship, total power

AKicebear wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:20 pm Why not three numbers:
10 - 300 - 800
Weakest ship, strongest ship, total power

Thoser number scould mean:
2x300 + 20x10
or
1x300 + 50x10

Make a big difference.

Sure. But would you make a different strategic decision based on that info versus a simple 800?

zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:12 pm What does "800 Fleet Power" and "8 Ships" tell you?

Actually quite allot... if I have 1000 Fleet Power and 2 ships and the opponent 800 fleet power and 8 ships it is a bad idea to engage them ans they have allot more stamina and will likely win even if they have less fleet power.

It really does not matter which ships have witch fleet power as it generally can be difficult to decide which ships shoot at which ship unless you micromanage every fight. Something I think you generally should not do as that makes it too easy to beat the AI.

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:02 pm

zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:12 pm What does "800 Fleet Power" and "8 Ships" tell you?

Actually quite allot... if I have 1000 Fleet Power and 2 ships and the opponent 800 fleet power and 8 ships it is a bad idea to engage them ans they have allot more stamina and will likely win even if they have less fleet power.

And you get to that conclusion by getting the average.

Or what is your formula?

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:02 pm

zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:12 pm What does "800 Fleet Power" and "8 Ships" tell you?

Actually quite allot... if I have 1000 Fleet Power and 2 ships and the opponent 800 fleet power and 8 ships it is a bad idea to engage them ans they have allot more stamina and will likely win even if they have less fleet power.

I have to agree with this statement. I've had 6 ships with 43 firepower each take on and defeat a pirate destroyer with 156 fire power. The number of ships is the key, most of the time. There is an exception to every rule....GP

btd64 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:03 pm

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:02 pm

zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:12 pm What does "800 Fleet Power" and "8 Ships" tell you?

Actually quite allot... if I have 1000 Fleet Power and 2 ships and the opponent 800 fleet power and 8 ships it is a bad idea to engage them ans they have allot more stamina and will likely win even if they have less fleet power.

I have to agree with this statement. I've had 6 ships with 43 firepower each take on and defeat a pirate destroyer with 156 fire power. The number of ships is the key, most of the time. There is an exception to every rule....GP

Did you have a mistake in any of those numbers? Because that example does not show any advantage for having a count:
6*43 = 258
258 > 156

zgrssd wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:08 pm

btd64 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:03 pm

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:02 pm

Actually quite allot... if I have 1000 Fleet Power and 2 ships and the opponent 800 fleet power and 8 ships it is a bad idea to engage them ans they have allot more stamina and will likely win even if they have less fleet power.

I have to agree with this statement. I've had 6 ships with 43 firepower each take on and defeat a pirate destroyer with 156 fire power. The number of ships is the key, most of the time. There is an exception to every rule....GP

Did you have a mistake in any of those numbers? Because that example does not show any advantage for having a count:
6*43 = 258
258 > 156

I checked my notes. it was 4 ships, I build in groups of 4, and the pirate ship was 256. so it was 4x43=172 vs 256. I sometimes see my numbers wrong. Concussion damage. It requires me to try to pay extra attention to what I'm doing....GP

btd64 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:18 pm

zgrssd wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:08 pm

btd64 wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:03 pm

I have to agree with this statement. I've had 6 ships with 43 firepower each take on and defeat a pirate destroyer with 156 fire power. The number of ships is the key, most of the time. There is an exception to every rule....GP

Did you have a mistake in any of those numbers? Because that example does not show any advantage for having a count:
6*43 = 258
258 > 156

I checked my notes. it was 4 ships, I build in groups of 4, and the pirate ship was 256. so it was 4x43=172 vs 256. I sometimes see my numbers wrong. Concussion damage. It requires me to try to pay extra attention to what I'm doing....GP

That sounds like a simple case of the combat power being wrongly calculated.
If anything, a high "number of ships" should indicate the inferiority of one side.

Same combat power over more ships = easier to drive firepower away, harder time for all weapons to reach ideal firing position, etc.

zgrssd wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 11:05 am

Jorgen_CAB wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:02 pm

zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:12 pm What does "800 Fleet Power" and "8 Ships" tell you?

Actually quite allot... if I have 1000 Fleet Power and 2 ships and the opponent 800 fleet power and 8 ships it is a bad idea to engage them ans they have allot more stamina and will likely win even if they have less fleet power.

And you get to that conclusion by getting the average.

Or what is your formula?

Not sure what it is you don't understand?!?

The firepower is ONLY the number of weapons... the more ships you have with the same firepower you have MORE staying power in more shields, armour and hull. The firepower value does not show this while the number of ships give you a better picture.

One ship with a total fire power of 1000 will basically always loose against another fleet with 1000 firepower but two ships, almost always.

Firepower and number of ships give you a much more accurate guesstimation of actual strength.

My typical reaction to a fleet is "Oh schitt!! That's a big damn fleet! I'd better send a bigger damn fleet!!" And it usually works.

zgrssd wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:12 pm
The show me.

What does "800 Fleet Power" and "8 Ships" tell you?

I'm going to emphasise the vital part of this quote.

What does "800 Fleet Power" and "8 Ships" tell you?

To make this very explicit, 800 AND 8 is more information than 800. It tells me that there are 8 ships in the fleet with a combined nominal strength of 800.
As opposed to 800, which tells me only that there is an entity of unknown composition which has a nominal strength of 800.

I am not requesting an average.
If I wanted to see one number, I would have requested that the developers present that number in the UI. I do not have any intention of using those numbers to perform a calculation when the game could have done it for me.

I hope this post (and others in this thread) are informative for you.