Matrix Games Forums

thats my trade off, as of this stage I have less at the front than if I had single isolated W-E lines, my hope is by the time it matters this approach generates a more diverse depot system and means minimal build up of penalties on particular lines. I hit on this by accident in the game vs Steven when I set all this in place come Feb 42 so this time I'm going to see if its worth the sub-optimal outcomes at this particular phase

Still of the view that the key to surviving the winter is the ability to rotate units off/on depots to recover

He's agreed to give me notes for a post for the start of December, this'll catch up on his responses so far and what he sees as the key to the winter. I'll rewrite them into a formal post.

T18 – 21 September 1941

AGN

Some evidence that the Soviet defensive line is weakening on this sector so AGN mostly spent the week re-organising for the final push to isolate the city.

16A carried on making slow gains.

AGC

However, it was in the 9A sector that the main German offensive occured. 3PG had redeployed from the offensive south of Vyazma, not least due to continued Soviet counter-attacks on that sector.



While the Soviet 24A managed to hold off elements of XXXIX mot, 48A fell apart under the sudden onslaught with its commander killed in the fighting.





To the south, 2PG secured Kursk and swung north breaking through 34A on the way towards Orel.



AGS

Elements of 6A took Kharkiv and the rest of the army took up a defensive position along the Donets (and captured Belgorod). To ths south, 1PG probed the Soviet positions around Stalino but mostly rested and waited for 17A to move up.

To the south, it took 11A two major assaults to breach the Soviet defensive line on the Syvash





VP score now 540 (490 for cities and a net +3 for events). The 47 bonus pts are out of a possible 64 from the game start. So am over the 525 to avoid a January defeat but run the risk the Soviets will more than match my time bonus.

Soviet losses running at around 100k per turn (that includes 3 divisions surrounded at Kursk and Kharkiv).



Air war back under control, my fear is that the VVS will find another way to adjust and return to being a really annoying threat.



Gaps opening in my logistics system, I'll drop and 1 and 2 PG to pri 2 as there is no way they can gain the freight needed for #3. So just wasting trucks. The northern half of the army are doing ok.

My hope is the network I've setting up in the Ukraine will pay off before the rains hit but its a case of trading off a better long term position for short term problems.



On the subject of trucks, never did reclaim the one I lost early on. Still have a 95% truck/unit ratio but a lot of Pzrs in PG1 and 2 are around 30 MP.



Some long supply traces but at least it looks relatively logical.

September Overview

So far the weather has held, its been light rain around Leningrad since mid-August but elsewhere has remained clear.

Start with VP.

I still hold by my estimate that I need a baseline of 630 (city points) to set the Soviets the challenge of having to over-achieve against their historical performance in December 1944 (with the caveat that everything else exchanges evenly). As a reminder the Axis player starts with 370.

Have reached 500 (against this measure) and have 53 bonus points (out of a 70). I've taken 13 victory cities so if I took each on the historical date I'd have 39 (so ahead but not radically).

The image below also shows the batch of late 1941 (have included Sevastopol as that is always feasible) locations. My assumption is that Kalinin is out of reach, have a decent chance at the other three but presume no time bonus for Rzhev and Orel.



So lets say I have 30 city points and 6 more time points by the end of November (Sevastopol will add 36 but I'm not sure about my chances there). All those will be vulnerable for the winter but will push my total HWM to around 591 (626 with Sevastopol)/

So far I have a net +3 for off map.

Ground losses

Across September I've lost 84,000 men, 1,200 guns and 370 tanks. The latter is up 50% on August reflecting an increasing use of the Pzrs for combat as I push for my targets. Still a long way down on previous games and reflecting the patch changes.

Total Soviet losses now 2.2m (so my guess at 2.5m by mid October is feasible as they are losing around 100k a week). Over September they've lost 400,000 men, 5,500 guns and 2,500 tanks. I get the impression my opponent is not trying to save his pre-war tank stocks.



Simplified the destroyed unit chart just to show combat brigades or larger. On that measure, destroyed 10 divisions in September,



Air losses

One thing that has shifted back in my favour is the air war. Put a lot more care into deployment and allocation and its paid off. VVS is still very active, even running GS in my phase.



I've lost 220 pilots (so well within my training limit) and 400 planes (about half fighters). Soviets have lost 1,600 pilots and 2,100 planes. Generally a much more re-assuring ratio.

OOB

My overall numbers are more or less static, I have a lot more Pzrs than in previous games (even if 900 are damaged). The Soviets have gained 300k on map and 120k overall so they have been pulling formations out of their reserve. They are down a net 900 tanks and up 3,000 guns. The VVS has shrunk by 500 on map and 3,000 overall (some of this is probably due to the smaller size of their air groups shedding excess planes back into their pools).



I strongly suspect there is a very structured approach to the production of Gds. The same Soviet armies tend to launch massive attacks each turn.

In my favour, from now on, is their 45 NM and am seeing more retreats flip to rout.

Their manpower pool is flatlining, so there is no source of additional formations. I'm stocking up on future support squads, but clearly can replace my losses – the challenge being to match them to my combat formations.



Finally making some territorial gains. There is nowhere the Soviets are collapsing but am managing to concentrate on particular targets. My problem, especially in the Ukraine is how far I've out run the supply net (and thus have most mobile formations around 30 MP). The low MP is ok as long as it remains clear but will be crippling once mud sets in.

T15 – 28 September 1941

AGN

Slow progress but at least the Soviets seem to have lost the capacity for counter-attacks. Another hex south of the Neva and one more along the Volkhov. One more (either side) and that is another rail line cut, leaving them reliant on single track that runs Cherepovets-Tikhvin.



AGC

While technically 16A is part of AGN, its now operating with 3PG on the Vyazma-Rzhev operation.

16A itself is making some gains but 9A is steadily weakening as it tries to clear a gap in the Soviet defences. Elements of XXXX(mot) have reached the outskirts of Rzhev and a fresh Soviet formation (16A) has been committed to their defensive operaion.



To the south, 2A faced further localised attacks by the Soviet 5 and 28 Armies. 28A was repelled with heavy losses but 5A regained some ground around Spas-Demyansk.



2PG reaches the outskirts of Orel but is really struggling with its supply lines. If I take the city, this sector will need to rest for some time.



AGS

6A consolidates around Kharkiv and tries to secure the southern flank of 2 PG. Elements of 17A probe along the Donets while the bulk of the army took Stalino in a direct assault.



Elements of 1PG moved to cut off the retreating Soviet formations and to try and capture the industrial Donets region.



In support of this, the Italians undertook their first major operation successfully clearing the Soviet 106 Mech division and opening up a gap for the German motorised divisions.



11A and 4 RuA broke the Soviet lines along the Sivash, but were stalled by a second defensive line and made limited progress towards Sevastopol.

Do you think you can take Sevastopol before the end of 1941 ?

The last update on your POW Hiwis was 81 thousand give or take, what is the number now, I found these troops invaluable in 1942. i really needed them.

By DEC I think I had around 150,000 or so , now I have nearly half a million Hiwis.

Is there actually a cap on how many captured men will become Hiwis, I cant recall reading anything but then again I have not read the manual from cover to cover yet.

For the turn I've just done that part of the manpower pool was around 24k (Axis Generic) so that is quite a drop but I'm in the worst of the winter period so they may be coming into use, but yes filling out your support squads with free manpower is nice.

According to the manual its formulaic, 8% of captured manpower and 3 manpower pts per turn off captured manpower factories (21.2.4) - never have had the tolerance to work out what this means in actual numbers (I assume the 8% is new surrenders not all at any stage) but 70% goes into the labour pool. So its not a cap on the pool but clearly keys off the speed at which you are adding new POW.

The lunge for Sevastopol proved to be scary/not really worth it. Not so much getting 11A to the city as getting the city isolated as the weather worsened. I ended up with something like 50% of the LB just flying naval air missions to try and keep it isolated. But I'd got myself in a situation where it was take it or abandon the Crimea, and then had real problems moving 11A to where I needed it. I'd not risk it late in the season again, its too marginal and you can end up with a substantial asset badly out of position.

T16-T19, 5-26 October

Have run these together as just had the most awful pattern of weather. As noted in an earlier post it was not till late September that light rain became a feature south of the Leningrad sector, but its certainly balanced out in October.

So that removed any time bonus for Orel and left me feeling very vulnerable at Rzhev. I suspect it also puts Rostov out of reach.

And presents some real problems for how to handle November – I need to make some more gains and disrupt the Soviet logistics system. Ideally I'd like to exploit the 45NM to see how many retreats become routs.

By the end of the month, for the first time, the Soviets seem to be voluntarily retreating on a few sectors. This might be a desire to protect the formations they are trying to push to Gds, it might be a desire to avoid excess routs or simply that they want to stretch my already strained logistics system.

This is the situation for T19:



T16 – 5 October 1941

General feeling the Heer is finished as an offensive force. Trying to wrap up the current operations, hope that a few turns break over the autumn rains will provide the basis for some gains in November. Also starting to worry about snapping the last bits of the logistics network into place.

For AGN, only really important gain was to cut the middle rail line on the Volkhov. The only freight now to the formations around Leningrad is via Tikhvin. 3PG made some gains around Rzhev which should fall next turn. In turn 2PG closed around Orel. Elements of 1PG pushed towards Rostov and 11A made some more gains in the Crimea.

4A took Bryansk.

As a result Soviet losses down to 66,000 for the turn



And a small gain in their on map numbers.



Inevitable but adds to a feeling of some frustration at coming up short on what seemed feasible. At least this time I stuck to my broad plans as opposed to wandering off.

Weather report is for another turn of light rain/mud (and that report was very wrong).

T17 – 12 October 1941

Everything north of Orel was heavy rain, still mostly just light mud. To the south light rain/mud. Due to road network actually managed to take Rzhev, no point attacking Orel but did reach the outskirts of Rostov.

T18 – 19 October 1941

Still heavy rain/mud so not much happening, pulling stuff off the line for refit or CPP.

T19 – 26 October 1941

Guess what, heavy rain/mud. And more of the same for next turn?



I guess the good thing is its given me the chance to improve my logistics network with the front stalled.

Fairly predictably, the Soviets have taken the break as an excuse to reinforce.



The only active sector is the Crimea. 11A has reached the outskirts of Sevastopol. Reasonably rested but reliant on 4 RuA to hold its flank.



Yevpatoriya is proving to be very effective for pulling in supplies.



Do now feel completely committed to taking Sevastopol. Have other better uses for 11A but its here, there is no scope to rail it out but it might reach say Stalino by late December – which could be handy to stall any Soviet offensive on that sector.

Brief diversion to the rest of the world. Have had no time related events so everything is currently on track. Overall a +3 for exceeding some of the limits. Done the usual and sent a fair bit of the Rumanian cavarly brigades to the Soviet garrison.

Look on the bright side The Ostheer wont run out of drinking water for quite some time

They could go into business bottling the stuff and selling it world wide, they could make a fortune, its definitely a growth industry, look at today's market for water.

Contact Albert Speer at the Ministry of Industry and Production.

On a serious note I find the 22 Airlanding Division to be a solid formation and serves 11th Armee well.

At this time I'm stuck in the Crimea with what you would call " composite Army " of units from various other Armies isolating one city.

And have been since Oct 19th and its now 12th July, that is nearly 9 months.

at the risk of 'spoilers' the weather in this game is really odd, not sure if its just the natural random variation or if other games started at the same time have seen much the same?

But, from start to mid-Sept across almost all the map clear, light rain set in around Leningrad around early August. So far only half the turns post December have been blizzards and those often one on/one off so my opponent has had no real chance to get going. And those 4 weeks of near solid heavy rains. So broadly thats two bits of luck falling my way and one his.

At this stage I was really wishing I'd never done this Crimea move, should have stuck to basically a raid to disrupt the Soviets then pull back to the Sivash for winter. In part its all very slow but the main was the mess poor weather made of naval interdiction. I can't claim it cost me the game but it handed quite an advantage over to my opponent that took some clawing back

were there any major panzer vs Soviet tanks/mech divisions battles?
how did they go?

can you also show tanks pool?

very one sided, once I realised how much the patch has changed things I stopped worrying about avoiding them - still wasn't looking to fight but that is because I always regard the Pzrs as a movement force not a combat asset. Even the few times I got retreated, even a surround-rout, my losses were minimal.

Need to see how this impacts 1942 but initial fears is we are back to the WiTE1 levels of robustness for Pzrs -- with all the problems that brought.

This is for T24 and compares some information for this game vs my last one with Steven, the key difference really stands out



As to stocks, I'm using each week's production (more or less) but the difference is my Pzrs are all staying strong as opposed to needing to watch out they don't become vulnerable to shatters

Come 1942 and a strong Pzr force up against 45 NM rifle divisions is a recipe for endless routs and shatters for the Soviet player. Sooner or later so much needs to be refitted that any semblance of a defense will fall apart

In this game you lost 1k less tanks in comparison to a game vs Steve?

yes, and that has carried over into the winter. I am not going to need the pzr repl battalions to fit out, none will need to go to the reserve.

given how close some of the other numbers are, this really changes the game. I think I can push the HWM to a point that will be hard to match in 1945 and retain an even stronger Pzr force to control the Soviet advance than I had vs Steven.

But it wil be interesting to see in practice. It might be that the Soviet tank force becomes more effective from 1943 and that starts to turn the tables

T20 – 2 November 1941

No improvement in the weather, heavy rain/heavy mud almost everywhere. Looks like a big change for next week.



Well that was the worst set of heavy rain turns I've had. Certainly dislocates any goals to acquire further time bonus.

T21 – 9 November 1941

At least the weather has improved. So I basically have 2 turns to try and rescue something of the situation. Blizzards around Leningrad but cold clear skies everywhere else.

Stalin decides to get chatty.



Run a naval patrol to isolate Sevastopol, not sure I can sustain this but worth some commitment.

So a turn of much thought before moving a counter. One option is to accept the offensive is over, start to pull back into a more defensive mode. The alternative is to make the best of a bad situation. Soviet morale should start to dip, winning some battles will force it down that bit quicker, there are still valid targets in close range. Two turns of localised attacks may do me more good than giving the Soviets 3 turns to sit, chose their targets and build up.

Thats what I told myself in any case.

For convenience in the situation maps I've turned off the air weather so its just the ground conditions.

AGN

The opening action here was a Soviet attack to retake the Posadnikovo rail junction (which I then retook).



In response 4PG concentrated on isolating Leningrad. If I can, the goal is to push them back on the Volkhov giving me a decent defensive depth. One re-assuring sign was the number of retreat/rout results.



16A conducted both a limited offensive and a retreat. Its XX Corp pulled back at Demyansk as this sector is impossible to keep in supply. Elsewhere it made small gains in an attempt to shore up the 9A's positions at Rzhev.

AGC

Linked to that 3PG attacked around Vyazma. If the city can be taken that is a bonus but the practical goal is to gain some operational depth and disrupt what is clearly a major build up.



More successfully 2 PG captured Orel and inflicted heavy losses on the Soviet forces around the city. In support of this 4A's IX Corp hit the Soviet build up east of Kursk.



AGS

AGS followed a similar pattern. Along the Donets, elements of 17A attacked to disrupt the Soviets and break their lines of communication.

More to my surprise, Rostov proved to be easy to take



[we discussed this and he didn't think I'd commit so much]



Less re-assuring was the complete collapse of the Italian 52nd Inf.



In the Crimea, 11A moved into assault positions at Sevastopol while the 4 RuA made steady gains against the Soviet 31A and threatened Feodosiya.

In combination, pushed Soviet losses up to nearly 100k for the week.



While the VVS had one of its worst weeks of the war.



Still really depressing to see Soviet numbers over 4m. Given my gains that turn, can only suspect a lot of this is sat well behind their lines waiting for the December offensive.



Probably inevitable after 4 weeks of poor weather and the start of the transfers from the Far East.

Adds 24 to my HWM (4 time pts for Rostov – if I hold it just a few turns I come out ahead on that exchange). Kalinin is well out of reach, my guess is that at least Orel and Rzhev will be lost in the winter, Kursk and Kharkiv are a bit more defensible.

Not sure it was worth making a significant diversion to Sevastopol but may as well finish off that operation now. That will give me a HWM of 630 for 1941.

An optimistic reading is I only then need +120 for a win in late 1942.

" Stalin decides to get chatty. "

Good Old Uncle Joe, never short of a good propaganda speech

My last game I dug in for 8 weeks or more in some areas along the front I had, in that time I rarely counterattacked, I thought I had a half decent supply setup.

But when it the the winter hit the AI went to town I was completely pushed back from the lake ports and AI almost broke through to Leningrad and threaten AG Norths rear twice from the Valdai Hills.

In the Centre they repeatedly threatened Vyazma and Rzhev had to send back units I was trying refit, held on thanks to the heavy woods.

The South was the worst hit lost more ground there than both other front, despite layered defence lines.

My current game i attacked constantly all through the winter it cost as I was using the Pz's but i came off much better maybe I had a better supply system this game and or more experience, but actually gained ground in some areas.

Of course not getting to carried away with my success as more less wrecked my Pz's in the process.

And it was against the AI, but still by the beginning of March The Russians ( A I ) were a spent force while my last game I had to hang for dear life right up and till late April.

So attacking here and there is a good idea I feel in P v P unlike a P v E game the human play cant just teleport units where he likes repeatedly to attack like the AI can.


Rostov

The Germans only held it for 8 days 1941, you hold it for 2 weeks he should miss out on any bonuses correct ?.

I think the first winter is one of those odd phases where the AI is far more dangerous than a human opponent. For this game and last, my opponents seemed to basically be able to create the equivalent of 3 armies that had sustained combat power and can break the line. But given the deep snow movement cost, its hard for them to shift to a new angle of attack if I weaken elsewhere, so to some extent it becomes a localised problem. vs the AI if you draw down any sector, that is where it'll hit you.

Also in this game we are commonly seeing 2-3000 Soviet losses even for a win and push back - so even their best units need to be pulled back to refit.

Given their losses and lack of progress, also my localised counter-blows often see the retreat/rout routine, I suspect I'll have near complete strategic control by March.

Which is quite a shift of mind as in November I felt I was making a load of undesirable choices simply to avoid the very worst outcomes and ended up badly out of position in a few places

for Rostov they are on the same time bonus/penalties as I am. So I gained +4 so to match that they too need to take it a turn early (ie T22), if I can hold it to T27 they lose their time bonus. So while basically Rzhev and Orel are indefensible, so they are bound to gain +6 on those (even if I retake them in 1942), I can turn Rostov into a net win.

Its easy teleporting armies around using the SR.

Killmaster851 wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:57 pm Its easy teleporting armies around using the SR.

no its not. Have to be 10 hexes from the front on a working rail line, given the deep snow MP costs that is 2 turns from disengaging. One turn to the reserve, one turn in the reserve, back to the map. At least 10 hexes distant and probably with low MP, so at least one maybe two turns back into contact.

So that is 6 turns out of action, for one of the few first rate formations a Soviet player has to hand at this stage.

More like 4 turns and you get to refit them while doing it.
You wont be short on troops to throw at ze germanski anyways unless you did something very wrong 1941.

T22 – 16 November 1941

Snowfall all across the front, variable depths of snow affecting movement. Main air operation was naval interdiction off Sevastopol (failed to gain control but have a high value so any transit is going to take heavy losses). Next turn is blizzard almost everywhere.

So decision time. On the northern half of the front a number of Soviet attacks of army size. Some failed, some made small gains but made the point that I can't hold with regiments. So I'm going to abandon Orel and Rzhev – can't hold them and better to consolidate where I can. I'll most likely also give up Rostov but will try to reduce the Soviet time bonus to nil first. Also want to see if I can hold on, if so really opens up the southern front next summer (if there is a next summer).

Having decided on that, still attacked on three sectors for very specific reasons.

AGN

The ratio of retreat/rout is escalating here so not only is there the chance to break the overland link to Leningrad but to gain some depth and possibly leave the Soviets unable to do much in December. If this works, then the chance to go for Leningrad in February is there.

After last turn's offensive, the Soviet 21A has disappeared from the front line, my assumption is all its formations are refitting.



Since I am very much planning for how to handle the winter offensive I've marked where the main depots are.

The Soviet 22A launched a major offensive north of Rzhev that drove in VI Corps. This left me in no doubt that I couldn't really protect the retreat route for the formations in the city or push the railhead close enough to allow winter rotation and recovery. The intended depot at Nelidovo is not yet connected but should be in the next two turns. From bitter experience, a combination of poor terrain and deep snow makes this sector very hard to supply or pull units back to refit – no point giving the Soviets easy targets and just adding to my attrition losses.

It also pulls them from their current supply net, which may limit the damage they can inflict or their ability to sustain much.



AGC

At Vyazma, 3PG sustained its offensive inflicting substantial damage on the Soviet defenders. Even if I can't take the city, this is usefully disrupting what was clearly a very large build up. However, 2A was struck by 3 major Soviet attacks, all at army strength. Again, they mostly didn't follow up (or leave the attacking formations in the front line) suggesting this is an attempt to draw German reserves rather than break through (at the moment).

In the main, the logistics network here is acceptable. Clearly I'd like more, closer to the front but there are no huge gaps and I expect 2A to give ground come December. Some emergency forts are being dug in to create strong points.



Being purely pragmatic here. For once shows the actual logistics set up, in effect am going to try to hold Kursk and Bryansk, elsewhere to anchor the line close to the depots and the existing rail links. Can't hold Orel, not least the rail connection (if I could repair it) is far too vulnerable.

My gamble here is going by where their better commanders are, and where they seem to be attacking for wins, what is facing this sector is either newly arrived or not well led. Add on that E-W this sector is problematic for supply and my hope is I can hold a line that gives me a lot of options come 1942.



AGS

In the same logic, 6A is set up to defend Kharkiv along the line of the Donets. It is mostly in level 3 forts and with decent depots just behind the front. I'll deploy a corps from 2 and 1 PG so it can intervene if needed.

Taking a very different approach here. Again my instinct is I am facing indifferent leaders with fresh formations (have detected several new army designations). More importantly, if I hold Rostov till T26 then I come out +5 on the time bonus swap (so doesn't compensate for -9 at Rzhev and Orel but its something). I can then fall back to the Stalino sector with its urban terrain and good depot network.

For the moment, the ratio of retreat/rout is high, so I'll see if I can weaken the Soviet capacity even more.



In the Crimea, 4RuA approaches Feodosiya steadily driving back the Soviet 31A. If I can reach the bottleneck just east then that is secure for the winter.

Frustratingly, I think my gamble at Sevastopol has failed.



I've moved almost all my LB to this sector for naval missions to ensure its isolation. My fear is I have to retreat come the winter leaving the city intact. Since I was planning to use one corps of 11A at Leningrad and another to shore up ,my lines at Kursk that is quite a gap in my plans.

May have another chance, maybe two.

Still pushing Soviet losses >100k, so that hinders their build up (thought they are now receiving a lot of scripted reinforcements from the East etc). May manage to push their total losses to around 3m by the end of the year.



Their on map totals are hovering around 4m. I'm starting to run down the on map air commitment but otherwise my reserves are completely empty.