Matrix Games Forums

Just an update for anyone with the same issue - I hadn't realised but you can get a significant bonus from negotiating a deal that gifts tech, which is helpful as a workaround, but I still think the envy modifier is far too high.

maggiecow wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:47 am All working as intended. Obviously if you have a large neighbour with a similar political outlook or core philosophical values, you'll instinctively grow to hate them and want to fight their vastly more powerful empire. That's REALISM!

Imagine if there was a real world power that was significantly more powerful than every other country in the world. They'd constantly be rebuffing invasion attempts from Cameroon or New Guinea; nations driven mad with jealousy at the gross imbalance in living standards.

/s

Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that needs to go. Fair enough if you're ideologically opposed, but not when you're both singing off the same hymn sheet.

Why bother even researching the diplomatic topics when you could put the time and money into making better weapons and just steamroll those smaller empires to roll up their territory?

The system need a little tweak but i believe it to be fundamentally sound, when you have no diplomatic or economic relations with a state it would make sense that they would be envious of your economic power and fearful of your military might. There was the same system in DW1 but the AI was smarter when it came to declaring war. And i don't think just because your have the same/different political system that automatically makes you friends/enemies.

TheForsakeen wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:33 pm

maggiecow wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:47 am All working as intended. Obviously if you have a large neighbour with a similar political outlook or core philosophical values, you'll instinctively grow to hate them and want to fight their vastly more powerful empire. That's REALISM!

Imagine if there was a real world power that was significantly more powerful than every other country in the world. They'd constantly be rebuffing invasion attempts from Cameroon or New Guinea; nations driven mad with jealousy at the gross imbalance in living standards.

/s

Yeah, it's a stupid mechanic that needs to go. Fair enough if you're ideologically opposed, but not when you're both singing off the same hymn sheet.

Why bother even researching the diplomatic topics when you could put the time and money into making better weapons and just steamroll those smaller empires to roll up their territory?

The system need a little tweak but i believe it to be fundamentally sound, when you have no diplomatic or economic relations with a state it would make sense that they would be envious of your economic power and fearful of your military might. There was the same system in DW1 but the AI was smarter when it came to declaring war. And i don't think just because your have the same/different political system that automatically makes you friends/enemies.

Agreed, it makes sense as the most powerful economically/militarily that you have to show a certain altruistic magnanimity to overcome natural distrust.

How much does changing the strategy to 'befriend or ally' help with this malus?

ramnblam wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:46 pm Agreed, it makes sense as the most powerful economically/militarily that you have to show a certain altruistic magnanimity to overcome natural distrust.

How much does changing the strategy to 'befriend or ally' help with this malus?

By itself i don't think it does anything its just there for advisors to remind you to give gifts and start making treaties when available. Since the envy malus is gradual as long as you keep giving gift you should eventually be able to befriend them and start making treaties unless maybe they have a hostile strategy toward you.

Afaik you get a permanent +30 to relations if you agree to help another empire fight the hive. It doesnt matter if you actually do it or not as far as i can tell. This has helped me break the diplomatic deadlock in past games.

Other empires being envious off you doesnt mean constant war in my experience. In my last game i had one friendly empire and the rest hated me but i didnt get a single wardec throughout that game. And i played on the second from top aggression setting. Maybe they were too busy fighting eachother or maybe i was vastly superior to them. What i am saying is that envy doesnt allways mean constant war, at least not in my experience.

My approach is to either make friends early, before the envy can build up, or concede that we'll never be friends.

If I focus on making allies early, I can get over +100 relations with them just from maintaining the different treaties, balancing out almost any level of envy.

If I let the envy increase first, I never claw it back.

Kielm wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:57 pm Just an update for anyone with the same issue - I hadn't realised but you can get a significant bonus from negotiating a deal that gifts tech, which is helpful as a workaround, but I still think the envy modifier is far too high.

Ever since "The New Guy Newbie Guide to Fully Non Automatic Manual Play - Distant Worlds, The Manly Man Way to P" from Timotheus, I have never started a DW game with tech trading enabled. Maybe I should, but it feels like heresy. I owned DW for about a year and a half, maybe longer, bounced off it multiple times until the day I read his guide and about four hundred hours later here we are.

The basic premise, to turn off all automation, holds up surprisingly well for the sequel.

Gazzzz wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:01 pm In my last game i had one friendly empire and the rest hated me but i didnt get a single wardec throughout that game. And i played on the second from top aggression setting. Maybe they were too busy fighting eachother or maybe i was vastly superior to them. What i am saying is that envy doesnt allways mean constant war, at least not in my experience.

This is fine if you want to play primarily as an expansionist military-focused empire, which isn't exactly unusual, but all those guys who hated you were also depriving themselves of trade income they could be using to fight wars against actual existential threats.

DW2 is supposedly about playing the game the way you want to play it, but that -35 modifier hard-focuses you into perpetual aggression.

Ironically you're actually going to be most able to ally with an equally powerful empire, making it much easier to steamroll other empires without much opposition.

Sometimes I just want to play a simple empire simulator where I'm not perpetually on the cliff edge of annihilation. Anybody got any recs?

I don't believe this is related to economy. I believe this is related to fleet power? I've had games where my economy is nowhere near number 1, but the AI is still diddling around with tier 1 tech 150 years into the game, and my fleet power is 15-20x theirs, and they are showing that envious modifier.

The name "Envy" is a bit misleading since it's more about being concerned that some empire will overpower others. It's suppose to bring some challenge to empires that grow too powerful (get close to victory). As is, it's not really doing what it is supposed to do.

It gets going way too early (it should about someone being too close to victory).
It is relative to empire sizes (huge effect on smaller empires, less on the ones it should matter most: the competitors vying for victory)
It's supposed to be offset by other factors (enemy of my enemy, friend of my friend, coalitions etc.).
Racial victory conditions can give very wrong ideas on how is leading.
There are kind of limited options for dealing with them (set techs + limited bribes)

Currently, if you want to keep good relations, you need to have good baselines (races that instinctively like you) and get the treaties up before you grow too powerful.

I personally feel that a system like this is needed or the end-game becomes super boring steamrolling. However, there is clearly work to be done for the system to work properly. It is probably on their to-do-list, but things take time.