Matrix Games Forums

I've discussed this before and as LoneRanger has implied weather should not be an all or nothing condition.

Since SC has turns the represent a week(summer) to a month(winter) there should always be a percent chance of conducting operations especially air sorties.

Weather conditions, especially the inclement type, usually always have a period from a few hours to a few days that it does not follow the precedence for that turn.

During that atypical period there would be a chance to conduct operations although they could be severely limited and perhaps not so limited also.

A situation like this would provide for more of a random weather condition which is typical for most of the planet Earth's weather zones and add that element of uncertainty that exists in real life.

There already is a feature where weather zones can be linked and thus are more likely to have the same weather. The same basic kind of mechanism could exist from turn to turn, with perhaps a new season being more "independent" than weather in the middle of a season.

Lonerunner has made a very good point and suggestion for how weather effects Air units.

I think it makes sense that Air units are affected by the weather and the type of weather = the % it affects them.

I would love to see this idea implemented.

I like the unpredicatability of the weather gods and would not want to see that lost

I suggest more weather patterns

We know planes can't attack in snow or rain

but maybe we could also have 'light rain' where attack values are halved

or 'showers' where there is a mix of 'rain' and clear hexes

the weather is find except the MUD

if i side gets many turns of MUD, give up.

EarlyDoors wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:58 am I like the unpredicatability of the weather gods and would not want to see that lost

I suggest more weather patterns

We know planes can't attack in snow or rain

but maybe we could also have 'light rain' where attack values are halved

or 'showers' where there is a mix of 'rain' and clear hexes

You are right, in the early years of WWII, planes couldn't attack effectively in snow or rain. However, our turns cover a two week period. Maybe a "storm" or "blizzard" might shut everything down for two weeks, but a normally it doesn't rain or snow every day. Many Allied and German accounts of WWII discuss air units waiting on the runway for the rain or snow to clear. Limiting air effectiveness to 50-75% reflects openings between rain and snow activity.

Also, by the later half of WWII technology had advanced to allow air activity in bad weather. For example, bombers pummeled Germany day after day, summer and winter, by the end of the war. Perhaps research of advanced air units in WaW could provide additional bad weather capabilities.

Perhaps research of advanced air units in WaW could provide additional bad weather capabilities.

I love this idea

Agreed - enhancing weather capabilities based on air warfare research level is a great idea! Perhaps one or two additional levels, at a reasonable cost.

BillRunacre wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:22 pm

ThunderLizard11 wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:44 pm One annoying thing I'd add is the Russian winter event. Thit hit in my last game in March '42 and killed my game. A PBEM match should not be determine by random weather events.

Its timing has to have some randomness to it because people will invade the USSR from anytime between the winter of 1939 and spring 1942, and some of the more competitive players will attempt to remove Axis forces from the affected zones when they think the winter event triggers are about to be attained, in order to minimize the impact on their forces. So if its (slightly) random nature were reduced then these players would find it much easier to game the system.

So while I sympathise, I'm struggling to think of how we could change this. Suggestions are of course welcome!

I'm thinking more of PBEM where window is April '41 to June '41 typically. ELO rules don't allow before '41. Is there a way to limit to winter after DOW occurs so for PBEM it would be Jan-Mar '42?

ThunderLizard11 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:05 pm

BillRunacre wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:22 pm

ThunderLizard11 wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:44 pm One annoying thing I'd add is the Russian winter event. Thit hit in my last game in March '42 and killed my game. A PBEM match should not be determine by random weather events.

Its timing has to have some randomness to it because people will invade the USSR from anytime between the winter of 1939 and spring 1942, and some of the more competitive players will attempt to remove Axis forces from the affected zones when they think the winter event triggers are about to be attained, in order to minimize the impact on their forces. So if its (slightly) random nature were reduced then these players would find it much easier to game the system.

So while I sympathise, I'm struggling to think of how we could change this. Suggestions are of course welcome!

I'm thinking more of PBEM where window is April '41 to June '41 typically. ELO rules don't allow before '41. Is there a way to limit to winter after DOW occurs so for PBEM it would be Jan-Mar '42?

I can't think of a simple way to limit it to that winter unfortunately.

Theoretically I think it is possible but it would be a lot of work.

If you or someone else wants to try implementing it into a mod then I'll be happy to explain my thinking, I'm just not sure I could find the time to implement it because it would require a lot of dummy Decision Events with each one triggering its own Strength script.

That is if the idea would be foolproof and I've not thought it through comprehensively to 100% guarantee that.

BillRunacre wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:18 am

ThunderLizard11 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:05 pm

BillRunacre wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:22 pm

Its timing has to have some randomness to it because people will invade the USSR from anytime between the winter of 1939 and spring 1942, and some of the more competitive players will attempt to remove Axis forces from the affected zones when they think the winter event triggers are about to be attained, in order to minimize the impact on their forces. So if its (slightly) random nature were reduced then these players would find it much easier to game the system.

So while I sympathise, I'm struggling to think of how we could change this. Suggestions are of course welcome!

I'm thinking more of PBEM where window is April '41 to June '41 typically. ELO rules don't allow before '41. Is there a way to limit to winter after DOW occurs so for PBEM it would be Jan-Mar '42?

I can't think of a simple way to limit it to that winter unfortunately.

Theoretically I think it is possible but it would be a lot of work.

If you or someone else wants to try implementing it into a mod then I'll be happy to explain my thinking, I'm just not sure I could find the time to implement it because it would require a lot of dummy Decision Events with each one triggering its own Strength script.

That is if the idea would be foolproof and I've not thought it through comprehensively to 100% guarantee that.

Hi, i have worked this!
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 3#p4981523

Since the weather is controlled by the Lord of Hosts, could their be a "God factor relationship"? Patton prayed for clear weather to kill. Player gets a number of prayers over the course of the game to use. Battle of Bulge, Allies use a prayer, weather subsides.

One idea, is to break-up the existing weather regions into smaller sub-regions. This way, player is not completely hosed over 500 miles of front. I'm no meteorologist, but I'd like to see some gerrymandering of zones. The worst has gotta be mud turns, might as well do nothing.

BillRunacre wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:18 am

ThunderLizard11 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:05 pm

BillRunacre wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:22 pm

Its timing has to have some randomness to it because people will invade the USSR from anytime between the winter of 1939 and spring 1942, and some of the more competitive players will attempt to remove Axis forces from the affected zones when they think the winter event triggers are about to be attained, in order to minimize the impact on their forces. So if its (slightly) random nature were reduced then these players would find it much easier to game the system.

So while I sympathise, I'm struggling to think of how we could change this. Suggestions are of course welcome!

I'm thinking more of PBEM where window is April '41 to June '41 typically. ELO rules don't allow before '41. Is there a way to limit to winter after DOW occurs so for PBEM it would be Jan-Mar '42?

I can't think of a simple way to limit it to that winter unfortunately.

Theoretically I think it is possible but it would be a lot of work.

If you or someone else wants to try implementing it into a mod then I'll be happy to explain my thinking, I'm just not sure I could find the time to implement it because it would require a lot of dummy Decision Events with each one triggering its own Strength script.

That is if the idea would be foolproof and I've not thought it through comprehensively to 100% guarantee that.

Here is another idea- how about making the Russian Winter historical, not random at all. It hits during during the December 1941 Axis turn only. Historically the 1941 Winter in Russia was early and severe- why not have the game reflect that?

Yes, Axis players will compensate by moving some forces out of danger, but most ground units will still be affected and the game will remain competitive for a serious game. An axis player who waits until 1942 to attack Russia will lose against a competent allied player regardless of a Russian Winter.

I was pondering a bit…

Yes, Option 2 has its disadvantages with player B over A. Still, whatever possible weather change when it’s player A’s turn again, it could be the same weather for player B in the same 14-day time period. Similarly, the possibility of a new weather pattern for player A’s new turn after player B’s last turn, also means it was the same weather for player A in the previous turn since both players can have the same weather for the same 14-day time periods.

The weather has to change at some point but not at each players’ turn but rather when the calendar changes.

So it could be a matter of perspective: assuming “simultaneous player turns”, whatever the weather is on successive turns, it will be the same weather for player A and B for the same 14-day period of time.

Both players know what the weather is on any given “game turn” of, say, 14-days, the only real difference is that player A plays his turn first, then player B makes his turn. One cannot really say that player B has the advantage of “weather intelligence” over player A, since both players discover at the same time what the weather is when the calendar turn changes.

But the main point is that for the same 14-day “game turn”, both players have the same weather advantages/disadvantages and both players know before each plays his turn what the weather is. It’s just that player A plays his turn first.

CaesarAug wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:08 pm But the main point is that for the same 14-day “game turn”, both players have the same weather advantages/disadvantages and both players know before each plays his turn what the weather is. It’s just that player A plays his turn first.

I disagree. Player A will always now what the weather will be for player B, and B will never know what the weather will be for A, and this is a significant advantage for player A.

KlasE wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:46 pm

CaesarAug wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:08 pm But the main point is that for the same 14-day “game turn”, both players have the same weather advantages/disadvantages and both players know before each plays his turn what the weather is. It’s just that player A plays his turn first.

I disagree. Player A will always now what the weather will be for player B, and B will never know what the weather will be for A, and this is a significant advantage for player A.

Yeah..huge advantage to player A, especially if he or she knows the weather zones well, by land or sea.

Imagine player A with a Carrier TF moving into a spot in clear weather..bombing some enemy vessels, and then ducking a few hexes into some islands or adjacent weather zone with rain. There would be no chance of player B reciprocating the favor by air at least. With the randomness as it is now...Player A wouldn't know if there was going to be rain or not where he finally decided to park. (other than factoring geography and the seasons with inclement weather probabilities.)

Having the same weather would be a bonanza for player A through the whole match. Of course I'm talking about MP here. It would be exploited by it's full potential by some folks guaranteed.

yeah¡ be aware¡

the weather is all right, the weathrer historical was worst than it gives

it looks like helps axis

Yes, I understand this reasoning. While it is certainly true that player A always knows what the weather will be for player B in a given turn, but that player B doesn’t know what the weather will be for player A when the calendar turn changes, player A doesn’t know what the weather will be either. But yes, the weather intelligence is lopsided all the same.

Given that SC are turn-based games, a “more balanced” implementation of weather seems very difficult. And playing without weather isn’t really an option for most players.

Though I remember reading somewhere that an interesting feature implemented in World in Flames does not guarantee a perfect dynamic of alternate player turns, that is, given certain circumstances. a player can have two consecutive turns before the opponent’s turn, and the potential implications for weather effects.

Perhaps the best we can do with current game parameters is what other players are suggesting: gradual reductions to air unit operations in rainy weather, and/or increased weather zones to balance out weather effects over an area.

Coupling the previous turn's conditions to the current one should also be workable, as it is for adjacent zones. Have a clean roll however for new seasons (yes I know the editor has "sub" seasons, such as late spring or early winter).