Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:14 pm**

Turn 18, .19Beta

I think it is pretty clear that the boyz have been messing around with the Air Transport OPS loss rates.

: WiTE2_AirTransport_T18_B19.JPG (274.83 KiB) Viewed 1215 times

Total Air Transport Losses: 112

(I think I posted a previous example of current beta, Turn 20, Air Transport Losses: 400+ )

: WiTE2_AC_Losses_T18_B19.JPG (62.63 KiB) Viewed 1212 times

Posted: **Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:30 pm**

Earlier there was some apparent bug where planes were not suffering OPs losses adequately.
Frankly I believe -that- was the right level of attrition instead.
A rare and occasional -complete loss- of an airplane, in bad weather can happen.
Normally each run thouigh one sees that there are less and less airplanes flying. That is what represent some temporary damage, mechanical issues, etcetera. That is the type of 'OPs' that should be there.

We've 48 planes, flying in blizzard, IF no enemy opposition, 1 maybe is crashed for good. Ah, alas... Second run 30ish take off. Some had icycles, others had this or that mechanical part not working, needing maintenance, etc.

It was GOOD from the OPs perspective.

BUT what was working, was touched, and broken. - Or at least that is how I see and perceive it.

Then we had other issues by then, it was about the AA, about the intercepts, etc - in general the losses defined by 'enemy action'.
Which is what causes the real losses.
To drive a healthy plane in bad weather is a thing. To also deliver home a plane that got holed here and there by the enemy AA for instance, through bad weather - ah suddenly well harder.

Posted: **Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:08 pm**

@Albert,

No argument. What we had back in .15Beta was too forgiving regarding Air Transport Loss rate.

But now it appears to be completely overboard.

This is from current beta, Turn 14. Ist Air Transport Mission conducted.

It is actually worse than what the following reveals. The 2 Air Transport units suffered 3 Destroyed Aircraft + 11 Damaged Aircraft - and not as a result of air combat.

: WiTE2_AirTransport_T14_CR.JPG (126.07 KiB) Viewed 1191 times

: WiTE2_AirTransport_T14_CombatDetails.JPG (62.8 KiB) Viewed 1191 times

FYI - The Air Transport OPS loss rates don't appear to equally apply to the Soviet AI.

Posted: **Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:44 pm**

Hanny

still seeing you running up higher losses than I suffer for less effect. Easiest solution is you are pushing the transport assets too hard in poor weather, pay attention to fatigue, use 'rest' to avoid this, look at the bases you are using. Don't drop right at the front (rarely needed) aim for airbases 5-10 hexes to the rear.

little use chucking up random images across patches, there are, simply, too many variables. You may be onto something but its not evidenced by your posts. In the end that needs the tedious business of the same mission, with as few outside variables as possible, run something like 10 turns. if that, between patches, produces something very different then its strong evidence.

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:13 am**

The Air Transport losses are just insane now.

If the devs don't want us to use Transport Missions, then way even put them in the game?

: WiTE2_AirTransport_T14_losses.JPG (79.63 KiB) Viewed 1148 times

Turn 14 and have lost 300 Air Transports, overwhelmingly to OPS.

Is a far cry from the following (already nearly double the actual number of OPS losses for entire year across all fronts):

: Luftwaffe_Losses_AllFronts_1941.JPG (184.77 KiB) Viewed 1148 times

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:20 am**

DarkHorse2 wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:13 am ..
If the devs don't want us to use Transport Missions, then way even put them in the game?
...

as above, that is the way you are using them, I get low losses and high delivery off being careful in how I use them

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:40 am**

Hanny,

As a simple example, first set moved a batch of freight from Rostov to about 10 hexes west of Grozny (so around 25 hexes, air is mostly light rain) - this mission just supplemented what is being delivered by rail:

remember I fly nothing that has fatigue >14

the second batch of transport planes are near that target airbases and push the freight up to the front line (so they do a short haul) - this mission went beyond the rail head:

I also did after local GS combat so was reasonably sure the local VVS were not a threat

All I do is think about their basing, perhaps split up a mission (as above) and rest fatigued or low morale formations.

I *may* get less in a single turn than someone who takes no care, but I can run that turn after turn after turn, easily absorbing the losses

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:12 pm**

Turn 15, Clear Weather
Lvl 3 Airbase -> Lvl 2 Airbase

AC Units had:
0 Fatigue
0% miles traveled
Completely full on experienced pilots (yeah, seriously)

These OPS losses are insane:
16 of 75 (21.1%) Transports Damaged
5 of 75 (6.67%) Transports Destroyed

After Mission:
Stab KG zbV 3 (Fatigue 6, Traveled(%) 16)
KGr zbV 9 (Fatigue 7, Traveled(%) 23)
IV. / KG zb 1 (Fatigue 9, Traveled(%) 32)

How did these changes sneak in without any mention in the patch notes? Maybe the changes were written in code?

: WiTE2_AirTransport_T15_CombatResults.JPG (154.1 KiB) Viewed 1078 times

38,4,Bf 109F-4 firing at LaGG-3 (20mm Cannon MG151) - range 5
38,4,ACC 22 :: Range 25
38,4,...damage x2
38,4,LaGG-3 damaged by 20mm Cannon MG151 (1)
38,4,...damage 0 + 18. durability 27
38,5,* LaGG-3 damaged
38,4,Bf 109F-4 firing at LaGG-3 (20mm Cannon MG151) - range 5
38,4,ACC 22 :: Range 25
38,4,...damage x2
38,4,...damage +21
38,4,LaGG-3 damaged by 20mm Cannon MG151 (1)
38,4,...damage 0 + 67. durability 27
38,4,Bf 109F-4 firing at LaGG-3 (20mm Cannon MG151) - range 3
38,4,ACC 22 :: Range 15
38,4,...damage x2
38,4,LaGG-3 damaged by 20mm Cannon MG151 (1)
38,4,...damage 0 + 16. durability 27
38,4,Bf 109F-4 firing at LaGG-3 (7.92mm MG 17) - range 3
38,4,ACC 35 :: Range 15
38,4,...damage +34
38,4,LaGG-3 damaged by 7.92mm MG 17 (2)
38,4,...damage 16 + 19. durability 27
38,4,* LaGG-3 destroyed
38,7,..bounce!
38,4,Bf 109F-4 firing at LaGG-3 (20mm Cannon MG151) - range 5
38,4,Bf 109F-4 firing at LaGG-3 (20mm Cannon MG151) - range 4
38,4,Bf 109F-4 firing at LaGG-3 (20mm Cannon MG151) - range 4
38,4,Bf 109F-4 firing at LaGG-3 (20mm Cannon MG151) - range 2
38,4,Bf 109F-4 firing at LaGG-3 (7.92mm MG 17) - range 2
38,4,ACC 35 :: Range 10
38,4,...damage x3
38,4,...damage +62
38,4,LaGG-3 damaged by 7.92mm MG 17 (2)
38,4,...damage 0 + 89. durability 27
38,4,* LaGG-3 destroyed
38,4,LaGG-3 firing at Bf 109F-4 (20mm ShVAK Cannon) - range 3
38,4,LaGG-3 firing at Bf 109F-4 (12.7mm UBS MG) - range 3
38,4,LaGG-3 firing at Bf 109F-4 (7.62mm ShKAS MG) - range 3
38,4,ACC 56 :: Range 15
38,4,...damage x4
38,4,...damage +70
38,4,Bf 109F-4 damaged by 7.62mm ShKAS MG (2)
38,4,...damage 0 + 73. durability 29
38,4,** Bf 109F-4 destroyed
38,7,..bounce!
38,4,Bf 109F-4 firing at LaGG-3 (20mm Cannon MG151) - range 3
38,4,ACC 22 :: Range 15
38,4,...damage x4
38,4,...damage +40
38,4,LaGG-3 damaged by 20mm Cannon MG151 (1)
38,4,...damage 0 + 80. durability 27
38,4,Bf 109F-4 firing at LaGG-3 (7.92mm MG 17) - range 3
38,4,* LaGG-3 destroyed
38,3,6 GIAP breaks off attack !!!
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,4,Ju 52/3m requires maintenance
38,1,168 tons of freight delivered

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:22 pm**

Now in contrast, the Soviets (AI) lost a total of 2 Transports to OPS. (the remainder were either Flak or A2A)

: WiTE2_Soviet_AirTransport_T14_Losses.JPG (173.81 KiB) Viewed 1076 times

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:02 am**

Hanny

maybe ask yourself why your results are so different, revise how you set up these missions so they actually become effective? I realise you have a *point* to make but ....

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 7:13 pm**

If you believe there is a problem then screenshots are worthless - saves with repeatable results are gold dust. Set up the same conditions with two exe to prove your assertion.

Posted: **Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:08 pm**

Yes, where are the saves? I need saves before you do the missions, and then your results. I need to be able to repeat your missions. Please email the saves to me or attach them here with info re the missions flown.

No changes have been made in several versions, and they were noted when they were worked on. In my last AI test game, the AI lost 279 transports in 1941.

Posted: **Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:29 pm**

All I can say is Air Transport OPS is just crazy over-the-top.

For those who claim to not experience it, I have to wonder if you are actually flying them?

This is from T29. Even this is not fully accurate as I really started to curtail my use of Air Transports due to all of the OPS losses encountered.

: WiTE2_ACLosses_T29.JPG (125.53 KiB) Viewed 965 times

Posted: **Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:09 pm**

For all of 1941 (excl Nov) for all fronts, Axis lost 155 transports due to accidents.

I am easily seeing 3 times those losses (OPS losses), just for Jun - Dec 1941 on the Eastern Front alone.

This is without even trying, barely flying in poor weather and definitely not trying to supply a “Demyansk Pocket”.

If they were being intercepted and shot down, that would be different. But that is not the case here. They a just dying in droves from flying routine air-supply missions in friendly air-space.

This is some new from just a couple of versions back.

Posted: **Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:21 pm**

DarkHorse2 wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:09 pm For all of 1941 (excl Nov) for all fronts, Axis lost 155 transports due to accidents.

I am easily seeing 3 times those losses (OPS losses), just for Jun - Dec 1941 on the Eastern Front alone.

...

Hanny

there are now 2 requests for saves so what is going on can be checked. Here's my current game on end T28 (so a good map to the end of December 1941). While I don't actually trust your number, it seems I've only lost 275 transport planes (I assume 3 were the Hungarian/Rumanian assets). So, again as above, maybe a time to review your game play choices?

Posted: **Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:33 pm**

some time ago i was told that you are blocked, so it might be just a great waste of your time typing messages which addressee will not even see
just for your information

Posted: **Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:36 pm**

T23 of .14Beta (Nov 23, 1941)

What do we got, 98 Transports lost total?

While this may have been a little low.... now it has gone to the other extreme and is way over-the-top.

: WiTE2_AC_Losses_T23_.14Beta.JPG (120 KiB) Viewed 925 times

For comparison....

T23 of .29Beta (Nov 23, 1941)

390 Transports lost (over 3 times the amt lost than in earlier version)

Posted: **Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:13 pm**

Saves?

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:10 am**

I re-ran T8.

Clear turn.

AC transports lost from OPS - 25 AC.
A2A - 3 AC.

Take that, multiple by 52 and you get 1,300 transport lost for the year, in perfect weather, just from OPS.

What is that, about 8x the historical number of transports lost, due to accidents, for 1941?

Ouch!

: WiTE2_AC_Losses_T8.JPG (120.78 KiB) Viewed 882 times

Here is an entire directory of saved files.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!ApomLrihV-7hgdpDQEz ... g?e=ifMNjX

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:42 pm**

DarkHorse2 wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:36 pm T23 of .14Beta (Nov 23, 1941)

What do we got, 98 Transports lost total?

Is that a fair comparison, though? 1.02.20 fixed a bug where transports OPS losses formula was missing a factor. Which means before that the transport losses were less than they should have been.

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