Matrix Games Forums

Joel Billings wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:21 pm BTW, the event system provides a way to mod national morale, so there may be a way to create events that alter morale. It might require adding a few new items to check against, but Pavel has said adding these are fairly easy for him to do. If someone was actually trying to do this and knew what they wanted to check, we could look into adding them. However, I know I wouldn't want to try to do this myself as I think it would be very hard to balance.

Wasn't the morale change via even always absolute though? So that any new change simply overwrites the previous change? So you couldn't add +1 NM morale for holding Kiev, +1 for Sevastopol, +1 for Riga etc past certain dates, because you can essentially only have one event that modifies it. So holding all of those, would still just be +1.

Yes, I think that's true, so we'd have to add new capabilities to make it easier to use events to alter the NMs.

As for the scenario, I looked at the save and yes, this has been a bloody contest. The Soviet are weaker at this point than historical, while the Axis are better off and have a lot more territory. As pointed out earlier, if the Germans can keep the Soviets out of East Prussia/Poland/Romania they will easily win at the 1 Jan 45 VP check. They can even lose Romania and still win. Things are starting to get harder for the Germans, so the chance of a major setback is possible, but they have a lot of ground they can give up.

As far as what's going on with the units, it is a global manpower shortage (with occasional truck shortages keeping units from getting more supplies). As pointed out above, having equipment in the pool isn't enough, you have to have manpower. There are lots of units, even some on refit, that just can't get the manpower they want. With over 150 German units on refit, there are too many asking for stuff. Possibly reducing more unit Max TOE values, and/or reducing supply priorities would allow you to better focus manpower into the units you want to refit. Or you can use refit more selectively. The downside about setting low unit supply priorities is that they will also desire less supplies/fuel/ammo as well as less manpower. If you have enough freight in your forward depots, you're better using Max TOE and more focused refits to get the limited manpower to those units you want to be strong. In the case of the Tigers, there aren't that many units that use Tigers. Heavy Panzers aren't used to substitute fro any other types of vehicles, so if you have a lot of Tigers in the pool and really want them to get to units, keep the units that get Tigers on refit (and if they really need replacements, make sure they are near a depot).

All in all it looks like you've had a good game. Air losses are extremely low for the Soviets, and a little low for the Germans. Makes me think the Soviets maybe could have used their air force more. Of course having played into this game as far as you have, you've probably gone through many version changes. It's very impressive that you two have gotten this far in the game and that it's remained competitive. The Western Allies are running just a few days behind in France and Italy, but having achieved a decent High Watermark, if the Germans can use that extra territory to hold on for 5 more months, they'll win.

As for leader losses, the Germans have lost 58 leader so far. Don't know how that compares to historical losses in those commanders at that level, but the Germans had around 200 generals die during WWII. There is a tradeoff between how close you keep your HQs to the front and the risk of them getting killed.

Overall, I don't see anything obviously wrong on these various issues.

Thanks, Joel, for reviewing our game. It certainly has been challenging and fun. For the Russians, it's now a race against time and I hope I have worn down the Germans enough that it will be difficult to hold me back. We will see. What's great about playing one through to the end, however it finishes, is that we now know what to expect from the game (events, units, manpower levels, better strategy) for the next game.

Marshal Carl

Joel Billings wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:42 pm Yes, I think that's true, so we'd have to add new capabilities to make it easier to use events to alter the NMs.

I think this would be a good way to alter the meta-gameplay. Especially always running away to avoid encirclements. Not so easy to give up major cities before historical dates if the NM drops even further...

Ok thanks for all the replies and analysis - neither of us used much air 42/43 becuase I found it so complex - sorry about that.

Here are some MP screens

Thanks for this Sir - its a big help

Joel Billings wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:42 pm Yes, I think that's true, so we'd have to add new capabilities to make it easier to use events to alter the NMs.

As for the scenario, I looked at the save and yes, this has been a bloody contest. The Soviet are weaker at this point than historical, while the Axis are better off and have a lot more territory. As pointed out earlier, if the Germans can keep the Soviets out of East Prussia/Poland/Romania they will easily win at the 1 Jan 45 VP check. They can even lose Romania and still win. Things are starting to get harder for the Germans, so the chance of a major setback is possible, but they have a lot of ground they can give up.

As far as what's going on with the units, it is a global manpower shortage (with occasional truck shortages keeping units from getting more supplies). As pointed out above, having equipment in the pool isn't enough, you have to have manpower. There are lots of units, even some on refit, that just can't get the manpower they want. With over 150 German units on refit, there are too many asking for stuff. Possibly reducing more unit Max TOE values, and/or reducing supply priorities would allow you to better focus manpower into the units you want to refit. Or you can use refit more selectively. The downside about setting low unit supply priorities is that they will also desire less supplies/fuel/ammo as well as less manpower. If you have enough freight in your forward depots, you're better using Max TOE and more focused refits to get the limited manpower to those units you want to be strong. In the case of the Tigers, there aren't that many units that use Tigers. Heavy Panzers aren't used to substitute fro any other types of vehicles, so if you have a lot of Tigers in the pool and really want them to get to units, keep the units that get Tigers on refit (and if they really need replacements, make sure they are near a depot).

All in all it looks like you've had a good game. Air losses are extremely low for the Soviets, and a little low for the Germans. Makes me think the Soviets maybe could have used their air force more. Of course having played into this game as far as you have, you've probably gone through many version changes. It's very impressive that you two have gotten this far in the game and that it's remained competitive. The Western Allies are running just a few days behind in France and Italy, but having achieved a decent High Watermark, if the Germans can use that extra territory to hold on for 5 more months, they'll win.

As for leader losses, the Germans have lost 58 leader so far. Don't know how that compares to historical losses in those commanders at that level, but the Germans had around 200 generals die during WWII. There is a tradeoff between how close you keep your HQs to the front and the risk of them getting killed.

Overall, I don't see anything obviously wrong on these various issues.

Joel Billings wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:42 pm
As for leader losses, the Germans have lost 58 leader so far. Don't know how that compares to historical losses in those commanders at that level, but the Germans had around 200 generals die during WWII. There is a tradeoff between how close you keep your HQs to the front and the risk of them getting killed.

I would say that number is actually high considering how leaders are modelled in WitE 2. We only model leaders commanding a Corps and higher commands. If you want to compare that to historical records, the Germans lost 3 Army Commanders and 23 Corps Commanders as KIAs, but the number for Divisional Commanders was much higher at 110. So in game you have a loss of 58 leaders vs 26 historical. Thats twice the number of KIAs. And the war isnt even over yet.

Source: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=135564

It feels too high to me as well - now very risky putting good leaders into the front where there is risk of retreat - which is most places now

xhoel wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:12 pm
I would say that number is actually high considering how leaders are modelled in WitE 2. We only model leaders commanding a Corps and higher commands. If you want to compare that to historical records, the Germans lost 3 Army Commanders and 23 Corps Commanders as KIAs, but the number for Divisional Commanders was much higher at 110. So in game you have a loss of 58 leaders vs 26 historical. Thats twice the number of KIAs. And the war isnt even over yet.

Source: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=135564

Yes, without a doubt 58 is a fairly high number of dead Corps and Army Commanders compared to the historical 26 (throughout the war and on all fronts). Bearing in mind that we are in July 1944, it should be considered that the Russian strategy followed to achieve it had to be quite effective (or a very risky German strategy) ... or perhaps the game causes more deaths of high-ranking generals than historical ones (at least as far as the Germans are concerned since I have no data of Russian casualties of high-ranking generals, historical or in-game).

Do those numbers count leaders that died from natural causes and/or retired from old age/exhaustion? This may have been stated already, but does the player know how many of the 58 leaders were lost in the logistics phase, versus lost due to a HQ displacement?

I am going to post my feelings on the mechanisms in a couple of turns. Joel said I was slightly stronger - I should be a lot stronger than historical - I had no Stalingrad and No Kursk kind of issue and all my losses ripped me up from winter 43. The Soviets it is said are weaker and yes, they should be they had been ripped up in 42 big time. BUT now my army has almost just totally disintegrated in 3 turns or so there will be no army left I think.

I was hoping others may tell me of genuine mistakes made after playing their games better.

Cav

Cavalry Corp wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:30 pm
I was hoping others may tell me of genuine mistakes made after playing their games better.

Cav

I don't think that anybody will be able to come up with obvious mistakes given that you are doing much better than the Axis did historically.

I think the basic answer is that by 1944 it is very difficult for the Axis to go 'toe-to-toe' with the Soviets and that if you try to do so you court disaster (which is what historically happened with Bagration in 1944).

I'd suggest that the Soviet army in 1944 is very different to the one in 1943. By 44 they are starting to properly populate their TOEs with AFVs like the T34-85 / IS-2 / Su-152. So you lose the technological advantage that you have through most of 1943. Plus by that point you start seeing the Soviet Mechanized Corps which finally give the Soviet's the 'stopping power' to mount more sustained and deeper offensive operations. If you combine that with the decline in your own capabilities as you increasingly have to try and fight a war on two fronts (represented by the increased TB requirements in the West and weaker TOEs overall as e-Hitler tries to manage a war that is unravelling) then you have to fight in a very different way to the way you have been used to through the preceding years.

I'm interested to see what your current situation is. My expectation is that even if you have suffered some massive defeats you still have the space to retreat into and win the game by the end of the year. I may be wrong but my understanding is that even with the no early end scenario there is a sudden death condition at the end of 1944 where if the Soviets have not matched the Axis HWM the game ends with an Axis victory?

Sammy

Happy to send you a turn - as I said I am no expert in this and so much stuff of how to say give your PZD 40 mp is so smoke and mirrors in the game - its ways and means are so complex that they come up with odd outcomes which does nothing to enhance. UI am happy to know why a unit does not get its MPS and accept it but when it gets 25 one turn and 45 the next is so baffling - and its deadly, it only takes a few PZ XX without good MP, they cannot attack and cannot realistically break encirclements - that happens a few times and you are dead.

I appreciate your observations and input.

We are playing bitter end scn - was not aware a bitter end may be in Jan 45 by auto victory?

My issue is suppose I don't want to look at an auto victory with no army left (which will be the case) - I want to see a victory caused by stopping them which I should be able to do.

I looked at the 45 scn (very good and i have played it), that German Army is twice or 3 times better than mine is now and that suffered all the big defeats. I did not lose one Division to encirclements I think before December 43, my army was good up until the winter 43. I should be retreating with an army better than Jan 45.

Regardless I am learning I know that - I will play one more campaign, I know a lot of good work goes on, maybe some of the patches have distorted the current position

I am going to post some observations as to why...

OK here is a broad update and I will post some screens. I do apologise as some issues in the game I do not fully understand...

More Observations on the now late 44 game.

Firstly, I am not an expert in the hidden mechanics of this game. The hidden mechanics of this game, especially how you get supply(and trucks) into units and movement points into units, is still an enigma to me after all this time.
I'm going to make a few more points, and these are to be taken in a constructive way, please. The game plays very well until the end 43. If Germany makes no mistakes, they should have the Russians on the back foot. Even better if you just go for Backhand blows in 43… which we did. I think the beauty of this game is playing till May 45, many people seem content with auto victories early on and maybe the focus of the revisions has been on the early period - lets look at the full thing and how that can play out.

I am winning this game, as posts have pointed out but not in my heart – I feel defeated by the mechanisms of the game, not the Russians – I have no problem with being beaten by big and bad mistakes or being caught out by an explosive breakthrough. We have of course, played through many patches. We must take that into consideration.

I wonder who else has played to this point Aug 44 (now Oct 44) from the start.; please correct my observations – again as I said the complexity of trying to second guess what is under the bonnet has overwhelmed me and even then, the outcomes seem random.

1. How is it that say critical fire Brigade units such as GD has 45 mp one turn, then 25, then 40 and is not moving? Surely a unit should not get reduced movement points after it gains higher ones. Especially when other units in the same Panzer XXX I also get extreme movement point variations- it only takes one turn of low movement points (under 30) and the whole thing can be dead. Panzer units that typically have 25 movement points are totally useless in this game, because of the high cost of attacking and so on. It should be made easier for mobile units to gain more movement points if the player prioritizes it at the moment, there is nothing you can do. It seems way way way too random to me.
2. I have hundreds of tanks in my pool but none of them seemed to want to join the units. Also we have hundreds of guns, none of which seem to want to join the units either. This has been going on for several months now. I realize we may be short of manpower but are these tanks exist or not? I have no way of knowing – maybe I have 500 Tigers but no crews, is that what the game is saying? Also, even if better tanks are available, some units insist on keeping the oldest stuff possible – we should be able to tell what units to get which tanks.
As of Oct 44 no Heavy Battalion has converted to King tigers in Reserve or any TB. – I have loads sitting around in hyperspace doing nothing.
3. The winter of 1943 may be mild, but you need more mud- winter 44 looks like its going to be the same. As it turned out in our game, the Soviets just kept attacking (everywhere) as if it was summertime. They have been been attacking continuously since winter 43, and its now Oct 44.
4. The Soviets have been attacking all along the front since about November it is now Aug 44. I thought there was supposed to be intense offensives lasting a month or so. They must have too much supply all over the map. At no point have my depots ever had any real surplus supply no matter what I do.
5. Changing the TOE to 65 means certain death for any division, its not viable – most of them are 65 now setting but most units are less than 50 now anyway. Many are 25 or so and getting no replacements.
6. The retreat attrition is worse than the combat all the time now. Retreat attrition in general terrain needs looking at. Some of my units lose 50% + of their entire strength.
7. I have not suffered a Stalingrad or a Kursk, or a Bagration. But my Army will cease to exist in a month or so by the retreat attrition and encirclements as we have no MP, and the Panzers can do nothing to open pockets as most of them have too little MP either.
8. National Morale (both sides) should be reduced and gained in small %, not huge wedges, depending on cities lost, men lost and outside events. My Army was invincible at the end of 43 before the winter and loss of morale. Everything now suffers huge retreat attrition and or routs. I think 50% of my casualties of the whole war have been since December 43.
9. Rumanians and Hungarians were not as bad as depicted. Ironically now, 90% of the the German Army has the same value realistically as the Rumanians. The outcome of the attacks is the same – this was not the case.
10. The loss of so many leaders is bad but the replacement leaders, who are usually terrible, cannot be got rid of as the AP cost is too high and risks seem too high.
11. Refit in NR seems to do little I put them in W EU and its sometimes better.
12. Air Interdiction does nothing i can see of any real value. Stopped using it almost all the time.
13. No city forts outside Germany – that’s not good and Memel has just fallen (Oct 44). The Russians pretty much walked in, same in Sebastopol.
To me the game is suggesting at the end of 43 i should have just pulled back to Germanies borders - in te most realistic simulation game - that should not be encouraged.

All these points are intended to be constructive as I do not hear from people who started in 41 and still going Oct 44.

I will try to address a few of your points.

1. Movement points are variable for a number of reasons. Weather creating mud or snow hexes is only one of them. If for example, your motorized division needs a lot of supplies from a depot, if that depot does not have enough trucks to supply the unit, then unit trucks are put to use. The more unit trucks committed, the lower your unit movement points.

2. Tigers. This game follows the same Table of Organization and Equipment as did the German Army. Except for a very few units, Tiger tanks were only assigned to specialized heavy tank battalions. These battalions were typically assigned in the "fire brigade" role. If your panzer division needs tanks in 1944, it will get the tanks historically issued, typically Mark IVs and Panthers. They will not get Tigers even if you have a large surplus of them but not enough Pz IVs or Panthers. Regarding King Tigers, if your heavy tank battalion has all it's Tigers, the AI won't just automatically replace them with King Tigers. Only when you suffer losses can newer equipment replace older stuff.

4. The Soviets will not start running into potential supply issues until their supply lines are extending into Poland and Rumania. How well the Soviet player manages their logistics will determine how serious their potential issues will be.

5. A lot of German divisions were erased off the OOB as they lost most of their men and equipment, so nothing really surprising there.

8. I will respectfully disagree that NM changes happen in huge wedges. When it happens, typically it's a change of 5 in NM.

11. Refit in the NR usually becomes problematic when too many units are in refit, and then it is simply a case of there not being enough to go around. For instance, I will usually only refit one or two panzer divisions at a time in the reserves if a group of them are present.

12. If you didn't use air much in general because you found it too complex, yes, interdiction is not for you. It is a lot of work and the results admittedly not impressive most of the time.

Lastly, in the GC, you really win in 1942 as Axis or prepare yourself for the rough ride of the battle lines relentlessly moving westwards. To win in 1942, above all you need a strong background in how logistics work. Everything else at the tactical and strategic level will swing in one way or another based on having that skill.

re: dead senior officers. Note this only includes losses among the "at start" 1941 officers-

Mehring wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:29 pm

ORIGINAL: morvael

See, this should be now extra rare, so when it happens you'll remember it longer as a very special event.

But it wasn't a rare event. Anything but.

While awaiting my fate at the hands of my current opponent, I had time to research the 151 German leaders available at the 1941 campaign start. Of these, 51, just over one third, were no longer available by the war's end. I did not include the generals captured in May 1945 unless I found it was in combat circumstances rather than national surrender.

Over a third, probably the largest single cause of those killed in action (13) were victims of tactical air attacks (5).
Eleven were taken prisoner, by no means all of them while isolated.

While undefined "retirement" may mask many actual reasons, such as demoralisation or political disfavour, it remains a major loss, accounting for 8 generals, while retirement due to ill health or age accounted for a further 6.






KIA various causes- 8

Walther Graeßner- was wounded in mid-February and later died of his wounds on 16 July 1943.
Paul Laux- Killed recon air crash
Friedrich Mieth- killed Rumania 44
Georg Pfeiffer- Killed Mogilev 1944
Eugen von Schobert- KIA Sept 41
Joachim von Kortzfleisch- KIA March 45
Hans Zorn- KIA Aug 43 Orel area.
Wilhelm Stemmermann- KIA Feb 44 Korsun-Cherkassy.

KIA Tactical Air Attacks- 5

Wilhelm Schneckenburger- KIA tactical air attack Oct 44
Fedor von Bock- Killed tactical air attack May 45
Kurt von Briesen - KIA tactical air attack near Kharkov Nov 41
Erich Marcks- killed tactical air attack Normandy
Robert Martinek- Killed tactical air attack June 44

Wounded- 1

Alfred Schlemm- Wounded March 45

Retired Medical grounds/ Ill Health or Age/ Death due to Illness- 6

Christian Hansen- retired from the Wehrmacht on 31 December 1944, because of illness. He died in 1972.
Walter von Brockdorf-Ahlefeldt- Ill Nov 42, died subsequently.
Wolfram von Richthofen- retired medical grounds late 44
Walther von Reichenau - heart attack Jan 42
Mauritz von Wiktorin- Discharged Nov 44 old age.
Max Heinrich von Schenckendorff - died heart failure Jul 43

Retired no reason stated- 8

Adolf Kuntzen- retired Dec 44
Friedrich Materna - retired 44
Georg-Hans Reinhardt- Retired Jan 45
Alfred von Hubicki- retired March 45
Edgar Theissen- Retired Dec 44
Eberhard von Mackensen- retired from active service summer 44
Albert Wodrig- Retired end Feb 45
Max von Weichs- retired Mar 45

Taken prisoner- 11

Walter Heitz- POW Jan 43 Stalingrad, died of cancer 44.
Edmund Hoffmeister- POW Jul 44
Vincenz Muller POW 44 (SPELLING- WitE calls him Vinzenz)
Ferdinand Neuling - POW France 44
Karl Strecker- POW Stalingrad 1943
Erwin Vierow - POW Sept 44 France
Hans Jurgen von Arnim POW Africa May 43
Kuno Hans von Both- POW May 45
Ludwig Kuebler- wounded and captured by Yugoslav partisans 45
Wilhelm von Thoma- POW Nov 42 Africa
Walther von Seydlitz-Kurzbach- deserted, POW Jan 43

Political Unrest/Reprisals/ Military Discipline- 6

Gunther Korten- Killed by July plot bombing.
Gunther von Kluge- shot following July plot.
Hans von Sponeck- imprisoned for insubordination
Carl von Stulpnagel- Hanged in connection with July plot Aug 44
Hoepner Erich- sacked later shot.
Ferdinand Schaal- Imprisoned following July plot

Missing/Suicide- 3

Kurt von der Chevallerie - Missing
Walter Model- Suicide April 1945
Friedrich von Chappuis- Suicide Aug 42

Accidents- 3

Karl Eglseer- Killed plane crash
Hans-Valentin Hube- Killed plane crash
Walter Schroth- Killed auto accident October 1944

M60A3TTS wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:30 pm I will try to address a few of your points.

1. Movement points are variable for a number of reasons. Weather creating mud or snow hexes is only one of them. If for example, your motorized division needs a lot of supplies from a depot, if that depot does not have enough trucks to supply the unit, then unit trucks are put to use. The more unit trucks committed, the lower your unit movement points.

2. Tigers. This game follows the same Table of Organization and Equipment as did the German Army. Except for a very few units, Tiger tanks were only assigned to specialized heavy tank battalions. These battalions were typically assigned in the "fire brigade" role. If your panzer division needs tanks in 1944, it will get the tanks historically issued, typically Mark IVs and Panthers. They will not get Tigers even if you have a large surplus of them but not enough Pz IVs or Panthers. Regarding King Tigers, if your heavy tank battalion has all it's Tigers, the AI won't just automatically replace them with King Tigers. Only when you suffer losses can newer equipment replace older stuff.

4. The Soviets will not start running into potential supply issues until their supply lines are extending into Poland and Rumania. How well the Soviet player manages their logistics will determine how serious their potential issues will be.

5. A lot of German divisions were erased off the OOB as they lost most of their men and equipment, so nothing really surprising there.

8. I will respectfully disagree that NM changes happen in huge wedges. When it happens, typically it's a change of 5 in NM.

11. Refit in the NR usually becomes problematic when too many units are in refit, and then it is simply a case of there not being enough to go around. For instance, I will usually only refit one or two panzer divisions at a time in the reserves if a group of them are present.

12. If you didn't use air much in general because you found it too complex, yes, interdiction is not for you. It is a lot of work and the results admittedly not impressive most of the time.

Lastly, in the GC, you really win in 1942 as Axis or prepare yourself for the rough ride of the battle lines relentlessly moving westwards. To win in 1942, above all you need a strong background in how logistics work. Everything else at the tactical and strategic level will swing in one way or another based on having that skill.

Ok thanks for coming back - point by point

1. what I said was a unit that does not move next to another unit that does not move may get half the MP of the others - units that do not move should not have less MP in the next turn surely. If its pretty much random we cannot plan things and with mobile units with 25mp or less its great danger.
2.Yes I know Tigers are almost all in Heavy Tank Battalions. What I am finding is only one has converted to King Tiger its now Oct 44 I have plenty of both in the pools why not change over why fight with inferior stuff when better is on hand - it makes no sense - yes ok if I had no king Tigers then you use the Tiger 1 that's ok. Many PZD seem to horde rubbish tanks as well when better versions are available.
4. well we will wait and see but as of now the Russians have been attacking continuously since December 43 and we are now in Oct 44 (no bad weather at all to even pause things). About 60 % of my losses have just been in this period. It almost reached the point where i was going to post a picture with perhaps only 20 Divs left on the whole front. If you look at the set up for Vistula to Berlin that Army is twice mine with all the historical mistakes and losses. My army should be better than that.
5. yes I have disbanded as many as I dare - as of now I notice no help from doing this as if units are at 65% TOE they die ... Instantly. Killed by massive retreat attrition usually. And I may add my Russian opponent is hacked off by retreat attrition on his tanks when it happens with TK XXX losing 90% of their tanks at times when retreating.
8. NM by -5% is large, why not make it slower over a month or 6 weeks
11. This point I have to consider as you may be correct.
12. What I meant was air on interdiction seems very little value the level needs to be too high to do anything worth the losses. Neither side used much air until late 42 but now its the only thing that can save me.
12. when you play a campaign its always for the disaster to come. What I was saying until winter 43 I had made no mistakes no Stalingrad no Kursk It seem that the game system collapsed my army when it was doing really well .
I would expect Russian surges of 4-6 weeks at a time. Mostly in Dry weather, summer or cold.
13. Leaders - cannot risk leaders in units that may need to retreat - it was too low in the beginning and now its much too high. When the leaders are replaced they are with the very worst it seems.

May I add weather - this is a big contributor to my problems - there should be more mud in mid-winter 43 this makes for pauses that both sides had and winter 44 is just coming and no sign of any heavy mud - light mud seems to make no real difference.

when this game finishes we will start again with all the understanding gained... and see if its better.

Mehring wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:51 am re: dead senior officers. Note this only includes losses among the "at start" 1941 officers-

Mehring wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:29 pm

ORIGINAL: morvael

See, this should be now extra rare, so when it happens you'll remember it longer as a very special event.

But it wasn't a rare event. Anything but.

While awaiting my fate at the hands of my current opponent, I had time to research the 151 German leaders available at the 1941 campaign start. Of these, 51, just over one third, were no longer available by the war's end. I did not include the generals captured in May 1945 unless I found it was in combat circumstances rather than national surrender.

Over a third, probably the largest single cause of those killed in action (13) were victims of tactical air attacks (5).
Eleven were taken prisoner, by no means all of them while isolated.

While undefined "retirement" may mask many actual reasons, such as demoralisation or political disfavour, it remains a major loss, accounting for 8 generals, while retirement due to ill health or age accounted for a further 6.






KIA various causes- 8

Walther Graeßner- was wounded in mid-February and later died of his wounds on 16 July 1943.
Paul Laux- Killed recon air crash
Friedrich Mieth- killed Rumania 44
Georg Pfeiffer- Killed Mogilev 1944
Eugen von Schobert- KIA Sept 41
Joachim von Kortzfleisch- KIA March 45
Hans Zorn- KIA Aug 43 Orel area.
Wilhelm Stemmermann- KIA Feb 44 Korsun-Cherkassy.

KIA Tactical Air Attacks- 5

Wilhelm Schneckenburger- KIA tactical air attack Oct 44
Fedor von Bock- Killed tactical air attack May 45
Kurt von Briesen - KIA tactical air attack near Kharkov Nov 41
Erich Marcks- killed tactical air attack Normandy
Robert Martinek- Killed tactical air attack June 44

Wounded- 1

Alfred Schlemm- Wounded March 45

Retired Medical grounds/ Ill Health or Age/ Death due to Illness- 6

Christian Hansen- retired from the Wehrmacht on 31 December 1944, because of illness. He died in 1972.
Walter von Brockdorf-Ahlefeldt- Ill Nov 42, died subsequently.
Wolfram von Richthofen- retired medical grounds late 44
Walther von Reichenau - heart attack Jan 42
Mauritz von Wiktorin- Discharged Nov 44 old age.
Max Heinrich von Schenckendorff - died heart failure Jul 43

Retired no reason stated- 8

Adolf Kuntzen- retired Dec 44
Friedrich Materna - retired 44
Georg-Hans Reinhardt- Retired Jan 45
Alfred von Hubicki- retired March 45
Edgar Theissen- Retired Dec 44
Eberhard von Mackensen- retired from active service summer 44
Albert Wodrig- Retired end Feb 45
Max von Weichs- retired Mar 45

Taken prisoner- 11

Walter Heitz- POW Jan 43 Stalingrad, died of cancer 44.
Edmund Hoffmeister- POW Jul 44
Vincenz Muller POW 44 (SPELLING- WitE calls him Vinzenz)
Ferdinand Neuling - POW France 44
Karl Strecker- POW Stalingrad 1943
Erwin Vierow - POW Sept 44 France
Hans Jurgen von Arnim POW Africa May 43
Kuno Hans von Both- POW May 45
Ludwig Kuebler- wounded and captured by Yugoslav partisans 45
Wilhelm von Thoma- POW Nov 42 Africa
Walther von Seydlitz-Kurzbach- deserted, POW Jan 43

Political Unrest/Reprisals/ Military Discipline- 6

Gunther Korten- Killed by July plot bombing.
Gunther von Kluge- shot following July plot.
Hans von Sponeck- imprisoned for insubordination
Carl von Stulpnagel- Hanged in connection with July plot Aug 44
Hoepner Erich- sacked later shot.
Ferdinand Schaal- Imprisoned following July plot

Missing/Suicide- 3

Kurt von der Chevallerie - Missing
Walter Model- Suicide April 1945
Friedrich von Chappuis- Suicide Aug 42

Accidents- 3

Karl Eglseer- Killed plane crash
Hans-Valentin Hube- Killed plane crash
Walter Schroth- Killed auto accident October 1944

Yes this sort of thing would be more than acceptable - it all needs re thinking and re working - and why not have wounded, suicide even missing as well as captured. If they want the most detailed and realistic game that has ever been
( which it can be) it has to be continuously revised. Wonder what happened to the one who is still missing

The list of generals is clearly incomplete. For example, the list of prisoners does not include Paulyus and the generals who surrendered with him in Stalingrad.

"Note this only includes losses among the "at start" 1941 officers" Примечание: сюда входят только потери среди офицеров «на старте» 1941 г.