Matrix Games Forums

Originally posted by decourcy
Hi all,

I am posting for Gary and Joel for the most part as I do not want them to feel like they have let us down with a mediocre AI. I don't actually give a flying rats *** about AI in a game like this except as a learning tool.
I think the vast majority of us here understand strategic AI doesn't exist and probably will not within our lifetimes (if ever). As long as the AI can do a so-so job on small map scenarios I am happy.

Matrix is going to make good sales of WitP, it’s commercial project after all. All we here are unable to provide sufficient sales, even if we will buy 2 copies each. That’s why they have to polish AI, and they will do it, one tiny line about ‘reliable and really smart AI’ in reviews and on WitP box, will give Matrix several thousands of new customers. 200 000$ - worth trying?

But no doubt, pbem is the only way to go in the case with WitP. I wonder how long it will take to finish grand campaign? 1400 turns or so, with 1-3 turns per day (some turns, as Mogami said can take up to 4 hours to complete) I’ll be lucky to finish it in two years.

Actually, consider what Gary and Joel were saying about the AI. It's not just the strategy, it's the logistics. Is anyone planning on giving orders to 3000+ freighters for Japan? Even more for the Allies? I doubt it's just a matter of releasing an "AI-less" game early. It sounds like it's taking a considerable amout of effort just to get the mundane convoy system in (and it doesn't surprise me either).

-F-

Originally posted by Subchaser
Matrix is going to make good sales of WitP, it’s commercial project after all. All we here are unable to provide sufficient sales, even if we will buy 2 copies each. That’s why they have to polish AI, and they will do it, one tiny line about ‘reliable and really smart AI’ in reviews and on WitP box, will give Matrix several thousands of new customers. 200 000$ - worth trying?

Absolutely right. Surveys have shown that over 70 percent of wargames, both print and computer, are played solitaire. While the "real" game, as we know, is in the human-vs-human arena, there just aren't enough of us who play that way to sustain the hobby.

A perfect example of a game that got it right is "Galactic Civilizations," which was criticized prior to its release for not having a multi-player mode. It ate MoO3 for lunch and pleased the critics so much that other companies have taken notice and are planning games that pit the human player against the AI - even when the AI is handling multiple "players" (EiA designers, take note). I strongly suggest that Matrix/2by3 look into what Brad Wardell and company have done and see whether similar approaches to AI design can be incorporated into their games.

Originally posted by pasternakski
A perfect example of a game that got it right is "Galactic Civilizations," which was criticized prior to its release for not having a multi-player mode. It ate MoO3 for lunch and pleased the critics so much that other companies have taken notice and are planning games that pit the human player against the AI - even when the AI is handling multiple "players" (EiA designers, take note). I strongly suggest that Matrix/2by3 look into what Brad Wardell and company have done and see whether similar approaches to AI design can be incorporated into their games.

Bravo! You stole the example I was going to use right out of my mouth (or off my finger tips as it were): Galactic Civilisations AI is actually quite difficult to overcome - they are constantly making improvements and all of those via player information when they log their best scores - very clever!

However, I fully agree with Frag; they (Matrix) have a very loyal and, dare I utter it, honest group of players dedicated to UV as it stands. I would have thought they could utilise that resource as a testbed for their commercial release in a PBEM only version.

This obviously requires the mechanical AI to be formulated (this is a WEGO game after all so we all require an AI of sorts).

We pay full amount for the unfinished product and then only play others in the "PBEM only" fraternity. We then can update to the commercial version later...

Matrix could even control who we play by allocating a serial number per game kind of copyright control. i.e I tell Matrix I am going to play Herbie - they generate a serial number that we both have to use - we are only playing PBEM so we both need a "game specific" decode key.

As decourcy says: the Ai is only a learning tool anyway - for most of us teh similarities will be close enough to roll straight into PBEM gaming!

Gulp .... the interview says the AI vs AI of the full WITP main campaign 41-45 takes 4 days of computing time....

lets see .... 4 years of one day turns.... 1400 some odd turns at 4 hrs per turn thats 730 gaming days at 8 hrs per day. So playing everyday, all day 8 hours a day, it will take 2 years to finish a game. Hummm.

Originally posted by CommC
Gulp .... the interview says the AI vs AI of the full WITP main campaign 41-45 takes 4 days of computing time....

lets see .... 4 years of one day turns.... 1400 some odd turns at 4 hrs per turn thats 730 gaming days at 8 hrs per day. So playing everyday, all day 8 hours a day, it will take 2 years to finish a game. Hummm.

....................and the problem with that is???????????:D

Hi, My fastest orders phase for 1 turn was 26 minutes. I cycled everybase and checked my TF's and airgroups. (Mostly all I did was look nod OK and go to next base/unit/TF) Once I get things organized the way I like my turns go pretty smoothly. (But oh those first few turns)

I'm starting a PBEM game with Nik. I'm to be the Allies. He sent the first turn. I spent 6-7 hours going through every hex and looking at everything and giving orders. I sent it back. He sent turn 2 and I have forgotten (or miss typed) my password. I have to do the whole first turn again.

I've allowed my life to be controlled by PBEM... but I will go one step further... I offer myself to anyone who wants a WitP PBEM game... obviously, we're talking months off.. but you name it, I got it... Long live PBEM and long live the USA

I dont want to sound negative but.....

First, someone has to explain to me 3000+ Japanese merchant ships.

Second, Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling that interview is an attempt to prepare us for a possible change in direction for WitP. From a grand campaign game to some sort of MegaPack of individual UV type games?

Worried:(

Originally posted by TIMJOT
I dont want to sound negative but.....

First, someone has to explain to me 3000+ Japanese merchant ships.

Second, Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling that interview is an attempt to prepare us for a possible change in direction for WitP. From a grand campaign game to some sort of MegaPack of individual UV type games?

Worried:(

They clearly said it would ship with many scenarios but that the customers would most likely get down to playing the massive campaign as customers did, including myself, with 12'O Clock High. I only played the massive campaign in that game and they suspect most customers will do the same in this one....because what we all really want is EVERYTHING:D

Oh and no need to worry I'm a tester and there are 1941-45, 1942-1945, 1943-1945 and 1944-45 campaigns currently in our alpha version

Originally posted by U2
They clearly said it would ship with many scenarios but that the customers would most likely get down to playing the massive campaign as customers did, including myself, with 12'O Clock High. I only played the massive campaign in that game and they suspect most customers will do the same in this one....because what we all really want is EVERYTHING:D

Oh and no need to worry I'm a tester and there are 1941-45, 1942-1945, 1943-1945 and 1944-45 campaigns currently in our alpha version

Thanks for the intel U2, I knew there were always going to be mini scenerios covering specific time periods, but utizeing the whole map. Now it sounds like they are switching to limited map scenerios.

And whats that 3000+ Japanese merchants all about. As a tester any insite you can give us.

Originally posted by TIMJOT


And whats that 3000+ Japanese merchants all about. As a tester any insite you can give us.

I think this number came up when they discussed the difference between PacWar and WitP which was groups of AK/APs in PacWar while in WitP EVERY single ship will be individual so as you can guess the merchant marine of both countries will be quite large. I think it has been mentioned that there will be a automated feature to deal with this so to make it easier for the gamers...

Well Japan had 6.6 million tons of shipping at the start.

So that is what? 2000 tons each?

Not talking about specialized TK or AO.

How fast can we run out of that?

How fast can we build more merchant ships?

What will the PRACTICAL effect of a shortage of oilers be on the
Jap home island ports?

Will we be able to assign CV assets to the droll job of convoy
escort?

Originally posted by Mogami
Hi, My fastest orders phase for 1 turn was 26 minutes. I cycled everybase and checked my TF's and airgroups. (Mostly all I did was look nod OK and go to next base/unit/TF) Once I get things organized the way I like my turns go pretty smoothly. (But oh those first few turns)

I'm starting a PBEM game with Nik. I'm to be the Allies. He sent the first turn. I spent 6-7 hours going through every hex and looking at everything and giving orders. I sent it back. He sent turn 2 and I have forgotten (or miss typed) my password. I have to do the whole first turn again.

SIX HOURS?

Jinkies , someone's been hitting the scooby snacks a little too hard.


I spent 45 minutes on my turn one. Looks like I'm just going to have to go for broke and occupy the West Coast. That'll take the wind out of his sails

U2, thanks again for your response.

Forgive my ignorance, but did Japan have 3000 merhants? Gary joked about Sampans or at least I thought he was jokeing. If he wasnt, then maybe Gary & Co. should consider taking a step back and forget about needless AI complications such as sampans, Landing craft, barges, individual pilot tracking, individual altitude settings and such. None of which is needed in a game of this scale and is probably better off being abstracted somehow.

Sorry for harping on this but the interview gave me the impression the game's developement is getting bogged down by its ever growing complexity. Which makes me worry that WitP might become another "Road to Moscow"

Originally posted by TIMJOT
U2, thanks again for your response.

Forgive my ignorance, but did Japan have 3000 merhants? Gary joked about Sampans or at least I thought he was jokeing. If he wasnt, then maybe Gary & Co. should consider taking a step back and forget about needless AI complications such as sampans, Landing craft, barges, individual pilot tracking, individual altitude settings and such. None of which is needed in a game of this scale and is probably better off being abstracted somehow.

Sorry for harping on this but the interview gave me the impression the game's developement is getting bogged down by its ever growing complexity. Which makes me worry that WitP might turn into the next "Road to Moscow"

Japan had 6.6 million tons of shipping at the start of the war.
Excluding specialized ships.

I have seen no Sampans, but even if there were, i'm still not taking six hours to set up my turn Mogami

BAD OMEN ALERT

In my solo game which contains my relief of Wake Island my brave allied forces from the other side of the pond led by that mightiest of Tin Clads, Exeter, staged a daring raid on a follow up transport Force off Malaya, sinking three transports and shooting up some minesweepers.

Amoung the casualties.....a BIG transport

the Mogamigawa Maru

ok so i'm Allied in that game....doesn't matter, its STILL an omen......you are toast man, better spend 8 hours on that turn

Originally posted by Chiteng
Japan had 6.6 million tons of shipping at the start of the war.
Excluding specialized ships.

But how many ships did that break down to? 3000 ships seems high to me, but then again what do I know?

The complexity is the very thing that they're trying to balance right now it seems. On the UV forums, there have been threads for setting individual search arcs, ordinance selection, and other such details. Of the many things that UV has taught Matrix, is that players LOVE detail. They want more detail, and more control.

I'm actually one of those that believe that WitP should -NOT- have such minute details. But I'll certainly conceed that there are plenty of people who think it should. And again, even Gary pointed out, that people love the detail, even if it does make it insanely complicated. The -only- scenarios that are playing in UV, are really only 17 and 19. Why? Because they're the most deailed, last for the longest time, and (seem to) give players the most options. Sure folks will occasionally pick up another scenario, but 9 times out of 10, it's one of these two scenarios. The same will likely be true of the 1941 scenario in WitP.

Players like (and more importantly, pay for) the detail, and Matrix is trying to put in as much as possible and still stay within a reasonable timeframe of completion.


-F-

A "reasonable time frame" is what I am worried about. Complexity can be a good thing as long as its commenserate with the scale. Whereas some of this minutia may be applicable to UV it is IMHO out of place in WitP and in the end might cause its demise, no matter the good intentions. Good intentions wont get the game into my greedy hands.

OK, I vented now I will just keep my fingers cross that GG doesnt burn out and the game doesnt become DOA.