Matrix Games Forums

WABAC wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:26 am

byzantine1990 wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:55 am Finally figured it out. It isn't over yet but should be just about finished. I appreciate the others in this thread who shared their tips.

Key points:

1. Defense should occur in three layers. 1st layer is made up of scouts who call in artillery to wear down the enemy. Bonus points if there are minefields. 2nd layer is infantry to slow the enemy down and continue to hit them with artillery. 3rd layer is made up of tanks and AT assets in entrenched positions, these will finish up the remainder of the enemy. It would be interesting to know how true this is to real life.

2. Never use screen under any circumstance(Primary HQ is only exception since it's moving around constantly). Set units to hold, do or die and do not move them. Units "holding" can survive under intense fire but as soon as they move or are set to screen it's like a forcefield lifts and they get destroyed in less than a turn. It's better to stay and get a couple more kills before dying than falling back and getting destroyed anyway with nothing to show for it.

3. Assign artillery to certain spotters to maximize the effectiveness of the artillery. If a battalion of tanks is coming down a road you don't want your artillery wasting ammo on the lone infantry unit on the other end of the map.

I really like #3. That's something I need to do more of. The other points are good too, along with cbelva's tip to fire point blank.

For sure,

With scouts being so hard to spot, you can just place them in areas with good observation, set them to refuse fire, hold and don't let them move under any circumstance. There are times when I see an entire battalion moving a certain direction and I'll move some batteries to the scout that has the best vision of the unit.

Finally finished the first scenario. Decisive victory

Thanks again for the tips in this thread. The artillery was indeed the key here. This scenario really shows how effective a deep and wide network of scouts can absolutely eviscerate formations before they ever see anything.

I think the only thing that could be improved is the enemy showed up piecemeal. It would have been more fun if most arrived at the same time so you need to make more hard decisions.

Looking at the after actions screen. There were a lot of Soviet units that could have fought but just sat there.

Well done!

In most of the scenarios I have played, it is my artillery that does most of the damage. Being able to see large areas of the battlefield helps ensure that your artillery hits the important targets. I like how you linked the guns to observers.

Good luck in the next scenario!

Hi Mike
It seems most of Soviets unit's relocation doctrine were set at "relocate when taking the loss".

I just saw the Sov tank bn cancel the attack after suffering 7-8 tanks loss among three companies.

Tcao wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:03 pm Hi Mike
It seems most of Soviets unit's relocation doctrine were set at "relocate when taking the loss".

I just saw the Sov tank bn cancel the attack after suffering 7-8 tanks loss among three companies.

That must be the issue. After the mission ended I saw several full companies doing nothing.

byzantine1990 wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:45 pm

Tcao wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:03 pm Hi Mike
It seems most of Soviets unit's relocation doctrine were set at "relocate when taking the loss".

I just saw the Sov tank bn cancel the attack after suffering 7-8 tanks loss among three companies.

That must be the issue. After the mission ended I saw several full companies doing nothing.

It is up to the scenario designer to set the SOP for the AI to get the behavior that they want.

byzantine1990 wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:23 am

WildCatNL wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:00 pm

byzantine1990 wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:55 am 2. Never use screen under any circumstance(Primary HQ is only exception since it's moving around constantly). Set units to hold, do or die and do not move them. Units "holding" can survive under intense fire but as soon as they move or are set to screen it's like a forcefield lifts and they get destroyed in less than a turn. It's better to stay and get a couple more kills before dying than falling back and getting destroyed anyway with nothing to show for it.

Well done, and thanks for your contribution.

It's not a force field lifting. What gets these units killed is the transition from dug-in positions, where the unit has a very low signature, to a moving formation which is more conspicuous and vulnerable, probably with hostiles up close.

As alternative, you might want to try mechanized infantry using screen missions with really large stand-offs (3-4km). The downside of them moving is that they might break line-of-sight, and not call in fires, as opposed to the sacrifical units holding the positions until overrun.

I would love for screen and relocating to be viable but I can't get it to work. I tried multiple times and holding until death wins every time. Let's run through some scenarios.

Artillery hits position

Hold: Probably survives with a loss here and there

Screen: Takes 30% more losses

Relocates: Entire unit destroyed before it can get out of the hex

Tank holding position spots enemy tank company

Hold: Probably survives with a loss here and there and takes many enemies with them

Screen: Takes 30% more losses for no benefit

Relocates: Entire unit destroyed before it can get out of the hex and gets no kills

Infantry defending a town

Hold: Probably survives with a loss here and there and takes many enemies with them

Screen: Takes 30% more losses for no benefit

Relocates: Entire unit destroyed before it can get out of the hex and gets no kills


In every situation it's better to use the "Hold" command.

The key to using Screen and relocate is to relocate before the enemy gets too close. Once they get withing effective fire range, you might as well stay and fight it out. There is no way your troops can pull out and escape. If I'm going to use an active defense where my units fall back to alternate positions, they better start falling back while the enemy is some distance away. Smoke helps too. If you wait too long, you can say goodby to that unit.

cbelva wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 6:04 pm

byzantine1990 wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:23 am

WildCatNL wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:00 pm

Well done, and thanks for your contribution.

It's not a force field lifting. What gets these units killed is the transition from dug-in positions, where the unit has a very low signature, to a moving formation which is more conspicuous and vulnerable, probably with hostiles up close.

As alternative, you might want to try mechanized infantry using screen missions with really large stand-offs (3-4km). The downside of them moving is that they might break line-of-sight, and not call in fires, as opposed to the sacrifical units holding the positions until overrun.

I would love for screen and relocating to be viable but I can't get it to work. I tried multiple times and holding until death wins every time. Let's run through some scenarios.

Artillery hits position

Hold: Probably survives with a loss here and there

Screen: Takes 30% more losses

Relocates: Entire unit destroyed before it can get out of the hex

Tank holding position spots enemy tank company

Hold: Probably survives with a loss here and there and takes many enemies with them

Screen: Takes 30% more losses for no benefit

Relocates: Entire unit destroyed before it can get out of the hex and gets no kills

Infantry defending a town

Hold: Probably survives with a loss here and there and takes many enemies with them

Screen: Takes 30% more losses for no benefit

Relocates: Entire unit destroyed before it can get out of the hex and gets no kills


In every situation it's better to use the "Hold" command.

The key to using Screen and relocate is to relocate before the enemy gets too close. Once they get withing effective fire range, you might as well stay and fight it out. There is no way your troops can pull out and escape. If I'm going to use an active defense where my units fall back to alternate positions, they better start falling back while the enemy is some distance away. Smoke helps too. If you wait too long, you can say goodby to that unit.

I find that in situations like this a 3 or 4 hex stand off distance works well. Less than that, and as Charles said, they'll be on your position to quickly.

[/quote] The key to using Screen and relocate is to relocate before the enemy gets too close. Once they get withing effective fire range, you might as well stay and fight it out. There is no way your troops can pull out and escape. If I'm going to use an active defense where my units fall back to alternate positions, they better start falling back while the enemy is some distance away. Smoke helps too. If you wait too long, you can say goodby to that unit.
[/quote]

My first plan was to have my AT assets as far up as possible and have them relocate after every volley. I tried to make it work multiple times but the risk far out weighs the reward. Maybe it's just T-80's but about half the time my unit fired, started withdrawing and the entire unit was lost before it could move. Other times they relocate into a bad position. Keep in mind, this is all from beyond 3km!

Again, I really wanted it to work but I kept losing all my tanks in the first turn. Once I switched to moving them far back with hold orders I started winning engagements.

I know you guys are working on the relocation logic but moving out of the hex still takes too long. You just get blasted to pieces.

Take artillery, if I have a unit set to relocate after taking fire that unit now has a debuff and artillery starts strong then gets weaker. That means I take heavier losses compared to staying on hold and moving after the artillery is done. In real life, my unit would see spotting rounds and run before the full barrage hits.

Four hexes often works for the TOW vehicles. But it seems like the Pact has X-Ray eyes in this one.

I now hold the TOW's in the city hexes at 1/3 range. They do some damage before the artillery falls. And the Pact will be more beat up when they close to the infantry point-blank range.

I split the tanks way back on either flank. Then I wait to see who shows up. If it's the T-80's . . . I have to consider what sort of shape they're in before I let the tanks fire.

I tried assigning some arty to the scout unit. In the long run I do better managing it myself.

WABAC wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:50 pm Four hexes often works for the TOW vehicles. But it seems like the Pact has X-Ray eyes in this one.

I now hold the TOW's in the city hexes at 1/3 range. They do some damage before the artillery falls. And the Pact will be more beat up when they close to the infantry point-blank range.

I split the tanks way back on either flank. Then I wait to see who shows up. If it's the T-80's . . . I have to consider what sort of shape they're in before I let the tanks fire.

I tried assigning some arty to the scout unit. In the long run I do better managing it myself.

That's my experience as well.

X-ray eyes no, radar eyes yes. Counter recon is an important part of the fight.

CapnDarwin wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:38 pm X-ray eyes no, radar eyes yes. Counter recon is an important part of the fight.

Would you mind elaborating? I think what he's talking about is T-80's get fired at from 3km+ and take snap shot to destroy the entire platoon in a single volley.

byzantine1990 wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:56 pm

CapnDarwin wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:38 pm X-ray eyes no, radar eyes yes. Counter recon is an important part of the fight.

Would you mind elaborating? I think what he's talking about is T-80's get fired at from 3km+ and take snap shot to destroy the entire platoon in a single volley.

Correctomundo. I see that a lot in this scenario.

Achieved a total victory on Mission 1, will post more screenshots and thoughts later

Well done! Looking forward to the screen shots and seeing how you do on the second scenario!

Here is the initial deployment

And here is the end of scenario 1

Recon deploy forward , they hold fire, disable relocate. They detected one battery of 2S1 at the beginning of the scenario, guide the NATO arty on the marching WP. They also provided valuable information on the direction of WP marching formation, so that I can move some of my forwarded deployed ATGM assets into the second line of defense in a timely manner.

The core of the defense are the Mech Infantry companies. Each of the inf co reinforced with 1 M150Plt and 1 Leo1Plt.

As you can see, the A and B Inf Coy stopped two Soviets BMP Bn's assault.

Soviet tank formation was stopped cold outside Seebronn. The forward deployed M150s, Leo1s and arty formed a kill zone just right front of the minefields.

In the south, another Soviet TB formed a very dangerous pincer. Their manevour forced me to abandon the forward defense and retreat to 2nd line of defense. But they just stopped there after taking some casualties .

It looks like the Sov AI's 4 axis advance didn't pay off. They spread their force thin.

If they can concentrate their force in two avenue, attack in echelon that should pose a bigger threat to player.