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Biggest mistake, in my opinion, is challenging the two powers that can output twice your entire spending’s worth of equipment. The disparity of economic size between the Soviets and Germany was massive, even if the Soviets started out backwards. The only way they could win is by crippling their mobilization effort, and there is no feasible way to do that. Germans started outnumbering the Soviets in 1941, leading to a successful offensive. By 1942, they were 1:1.5 by 1943 they were 1:2. Similar story with the US. It’s even worse when you look at vehicle production. More T-34s alone were produced than the count of all German tanks combined. That’s not counting other Soviet vehicles, such as the Su-76, of which ~17000 were built.

I think that what if’s are fun, but this is a challenging what if. I think the best chance for Germany would’ve been if one or both sides made peace in 1941. Possibly no invasion of France, which most likely (I haven’t confirmed if this is a myth or not) stretched supply lines further than estimated, as now they had to manage both Germany and France. This could possibly have prevented the famine, but it’s unlikely.

Also, remember, the moment Germany uses gas on the battlefield, the allies do too. I’m pretty sure the allied use of chemical weapons would be far worse than whatever Germany had to offer.

alomoes wrote: Sun Dec 31, 2023 4:53 pm I think that what if’s are fun, but this is a challenging what if. I think the best chance for Germany would’ve been if one or both sides made peace in 1941. Possibly no invasion of France, which most likely (I haven’t confirmed if this is a myth or not) stretched supply lines further than estimated, as now they had to manage both Germany and France. This could possibly have prevented the famine, but it’s unlikely.

However, if Germany doesn't conquer France (and the Low Countries) she doesn't acquire the large pool of trucks that made it possible to motorize much of the German army as well as provide logistical support. Of course, most of these French trucks would succumb to the brutal road conditions in the Soviet Union, but they still provided much of the forward impetus of Barbarossa.

There are rumors that not long after the commencement of Barbarossa while the Red Army was still fighting like a brain-dead giant that Stalin put forth peace feelers through the Bulgarian embassy to Hitler to cut a deal, but Hitler was supremely confident that his forces could defeat the Soviet Union and therefore ignored what was passed on by the Bulgarians. If true, depending on what was offered (Ukraine and the Baltics?) that might have netted a German victory right there.

Turning down jets early in the process. If Germany had jets in numbers in 1941, things would have been different.
Not attacking the Caribbean oil processing centers that produced all the fuel for the Spitfires. Two subs with guns could have knocked it out for a time.
Investing in ships at the exclusion of subs.
Postponing the invasion of Russia. Go early or wait until next year. Let the Italians take a butt whipping in the Balkans.
Not attacking Operation Torch with subs.

Platoonist wrote: Sun Dec 31, 2023 7:31 pm

alomoes wrote: Sun Dec 31, 2023 4:53 pm I think that what if’s are fun, but this is a challenging what if. I think the best chance for Germany would’ve been if one or both sides made peace in 1941. Possibly no invasion of France, which most likely (I haven’t confirmed if this is a myth or not) stretched supply lines further than estimated, as now they had to manage both Germany and France. This could possibly have prevented the famine, but it’s unlikely.

However, if Germany doesn't conquer France (and the Low Countries) she doesn't acquire the large pool of trucks that made it possible to motorize much of the German army as well as provide logistical support. Of course, most of these French trucks would succumb to the brutal road conditions in the Soviet Union, but they still provided much of the forward impetus of Barbarossa.

There are rumors that not long after the commencement of Barbarossa while the Red Army was still fighting like a brain-dead giant that Stalin put forth peace feelers through the Bulgarian embassy to Hitler to cut a deal, but Hitler was supremely confident that his forces could defeat the Soviet Union and therefore ignored what was passed on by the Bulgarians. If true, depending on what was offered (Ukraine and the Baltics?) that might have netted a German victory right there.

That's the question, though, were the trucks and other captured equipment worth the extra burden on the German economy that France put on it? Note, they were already rationing in 1939, and it got worse as time went on.

Also yeah, peace without total victory is realistically the way for a true German victory.

Stalin was planning to invade Europe, so Hitler had no choice but to launch Barbarossa.

They needed oil and they needed it yesterday. They should have turned east first.

Horses.

German artillery was still horsedrawn.

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Or perhaps they misread the map scale.

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Or the allies were just luckier?

As Earl Alexander replied to Macmillan's remark "Alex, wouldn't it be lovely to have to do it over again?"

- " Oh no, we might not do nearly so well."

MikeBrough wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:03 pm They needed oil and they needed it yesterday. They should have turned east first.

The Soviets were providing them with oil. That was obviously stopped when they invaded.

altipueri wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 6:26 am Horses.

German artillery was still horsedrawn.

==========

Or perhaps they misread the map scale.

==========
Or the allies were just luckier?

As Earl Alexander replied to Macmillan's remark "Alex, wouldn't it be lovely to have to do it over again?"

- " Oh no, we might not do nearly so well."

One of my alternate versions of my Soviet Union 1941 scenario assumes the trucks that they had historically looted AFTER Barbarossa were looted BEFORE Barbarossa. Thus they are fully motorized for Barbarossa. It has a huge effect in the AAR:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 5#p3538395

Not telling Japan about Barbarossa and including them in the planning.