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Wiedrock wrote: Tue Apr 15, 2025 7:58 pm

MechFO wrote: Tue Apr 15, 2025 5:58 pm These were etatisiert with Division 45 as can be seen in the first post, so should be added to the totals for that organisation.

I see. They are added to the totals. But they are not mentioned in the ID45 rules of engagement in any way and in the accounting chart they refer to this exact document from October, ...which states that the "Etatisierung" is intended.
ID45_Begleit.png
Meanwhile there are no new TOEs or notes for Gebirgs-/Jäger-/Volksgrenadier-Divisions which were similarly supposed to create the Begleit Platoon from the Division's personell to apply them "actually".
Here an example of 2 Divisions I've at hand. Berlin shows the 563 but does not visualize the Begleit Platoon.
Döberitz the math fits about right. ...so but what about Gebirgs-/Jäger-/Volksgrenadier-Divisions then???
Begleit_example.png

February 45 Gundgliederung for VGD/Inf 45 and Jäger Div 44 both with the Begleit Züge.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8

Edit:

also shown in strength report

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7

(also first time I see MPi 44 referred to as Sturmgewehre (next page))

another strenght report from an Inf Div

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

Implementation order for change to Inf Div 45

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7

MechFO wrote: Wed Apr 16, 2025 3:20 pm February 45 Gundgliederung for VGD/Inf 45
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8
[...]
also shown in strength report
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7
[...]
another strenght report from an Inf Div

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

Implementation order for change to Inf Div 45

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7

Yep. I think the thing for ID45 and VGD (as VGD were supposed to apply ID45 TOE (as a general statement)) seems to be "clear". And besides this I'd guess (and hope) that they anyways understood the importance of protecting their few AFV assets and regularly applied those Squads either way.

What' now the question is how to apply the Squads.
For the regular 10StuG you've had 3x15Men, each 3Sub-Squads "Teams" → 9x5Men, so 5per tank, The Platoon Leadership was exactlythe same 5 guys composition to support the command StuG, so actually 10x5Men Teams.
Then there was a Reserve Team of also 5 guys, when being attached to 4 Tank-Platoons they were supposedt be used, so ~4Men per Tank.

For the sake of easing things I'd simply go with a "Begleit Team" of 5Men [5xStG44 +Hand Grenade+ PzFst +Satchel Charge] for each StuG, which seems to be the intended size. So the 10StuG are missing some men (the Reserve guys), while the 14StuG setups have some men (Having 5Men/Stug instead of ~4 (in whatever way the Squads would have been set up with 14StuG)) too much as Begleit.

MechFO wrote: Wed Apr 16, 2025 3:20 pm Jäger Div 44 both with the Begleit Züge.
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8

That's why I was not sure, since I often had seen exactly this note (see following). Which as you've shown in ID45 was removed, but as can be seen (this is the same Gliederung as you posted/shared, just from BArch RH 2/1372 picture 10), so things can be deciphered.
...but either way, wrong Thread for this. I'll/Let's come back to this when finalizing work on the Jäger/Gebirgsjäger Divisions.

MechFO wrote: Wed Apr 16, 2025 3:20 pm https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7

(also first time I see MPi 44 referred to as Sturmgewehre (next page))

Rename was in October 1944, so it's about time to be understood in 1945.

Attached is the final version for WOTE v02, now inclusing the Begleit Platoon for the StuGs/Jagdpanzers in the Panzerjäger Battalion.
See this Post to see the newly created Squads.

The Begleit Platoon was added.

Wiedrock wrote: Tue Apr 15, 2025 1:18 pm The Begleit Platoon needs to be added since they are included in the manpower calculations (thanks to MECHFO for pointing that out).

1. First TOEs [OB:475] (was main focus of this Thread) version is alreadygood right now. Thanks to Denniss for his work and ideas on that.
   Just two small changes done.
   One issue lies in the composition of the number of Squads (It should use regular "Rifle Squad 43" + "Sturm Squad (-)" + "Sturm Squad").
   Additionally, due to the historic KSTN improvement which brought the Rifle Grenades of the Squads into a separate team in the Platoon HQ with 3 Men, there are 100Men missing as fighters, since they are suddenly "Support" in game (7.4% of Line Infantry gets lost by this).
   
   It should have per Company (KSTN 131V 01.11.1944):
   • 1st/2nd = "Sturm" Platoons together:
     4x"Sturm Squad (-)" [ID:83] [8Men, 8xStG44]
     2x"Sturm Squad" [ID:478] [8Men, 2xLMG, 6xStG44]
     ___new___(2x"Rifle Grenade Team" [ID:631] newly added)
   • 3rd Platoon
     3x"Rifle Squad 43" [ID:82] [9Men, (already has the Rifle Grandes inside the Squad)]
   So in total:
   3Rgt x 2Btl x 3Co x ....
   4x"Sturm Squad (-)" = 72Squads
   2x"Sturm Squad" = 36Squads
   ___new___(2x"Rifle Grenade Team" = 36Squads) - this is a new Squad not available to the Devs.
   3x"Rifle Squad 43" = 54Squads
   So a total of 72+36+54 = 162Squads (Line Infantry) (+36 Rifle Grenade Teams)
   
   The Changes are highlighted in the attached picture. they can easily be applied even without adding the 36x "Rifle Grenade Teams". The exact same issue (using 108+54 Squads insteadof 72+54+36 Squads) also exists with the Volksgrenadier TOEs.
   

   ---

2. The second one [OB:476] you can see the changes in the attached picture. There were several Divisions being excluded from using the general "ID45" TOE, a list of them is also attached. But the TOE is an upgrade to 3 of 4 (in 2 paths) of all of 1944 TOEs, so applied to many more units. This also includes all the "named Divisions" ("Hamburg", et cetera) which clearly show the small (sometiems even smaller) infantry squad setup. So not sure what this "bigger" Version was ever relying on when it was created. It may have been the normal oversight that Platoons were changed from 4 to 3 Squads inside KSTNs already in 1943 (which is also wrong in all of ID44 1944 TOEs ...and maybe even late 1943 ones).
   The Usage for this TOE may have been to have some Equipment variance, now it is mostly used to differentiate between STG44 yes/no and delayed Upgrade.

Interesting is the 1st Infantry Division which may have been the last Infantry Division with 3 Battalions/Regiment during this engame times (not sure about the "Sondergliederungen" tho).

As pointed out also in the picture (and above):
Already in 1943 changes were made from 4Squads/Platoon towards 3Squads.
Latest at autumn/end of 1943 this was applied to all new KSTNs for regular Divisions (static/security may vary).
So it is unlikely that in 1945 suddenly there would be a plethora of Divisions back to a 4x.
Correct me if proven otherwise! ...maybe for once they became more manpower efficient .

Wiedrock wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 3:38 pm

MechFO wrote: Wed Apr 16, 2025 3:20 pm February 45 Gundgliederung for VGD/Inf 45
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8
[...]
also shown in strength report
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7
[...]
another strenght report from an Inf Div

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

Implementation order for change to Inf Div 45

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7

Yep. I think the thing for ID45 and VGD (as VGD were supposed to apply ID45 TOE (as a general statement)) seems to be "clear". And besides this I'd guess (and hope) that they anyways understood the importance of protecting their few AFV assets and regularly applied those Squads either way.

What' now the question is how to apply the Squads.
For the regular 10StuG you've had 3x15Men, each 3Sub-Squads "Teams" → 9x5Men, so 5per tank, The Platoon Leadership was exactlythe same 5 guys composition to support the command StuG, so actually 10x5Men Teams.
Then there was a Reserve Team of also 5 guys, when being attached to 4 Tank-Platoons they were supposedt be used, so ~4Men per Tank.

For the sake of easing things I'd simply go with a "Begleit Team" of 5Men [5xStG44 +Hand Grenade+ PzFst +Satchel Charge] for each StuG, which seems to be the intended size. So the 10StuG are missing some men (the Reserve guys), while the 14StuG setups have some men (Having 5Men/Stug instead of ~4 (in whatever way the Squads would have been set up with 14StuG)) too much as Begleit.

"Begleit Trupp" please...

Or just add 5-6 Sturm Squad (-) and a Pionier Squad.