Matrix Games Forums

Hi,
I am willing to join playtest in May, I just need to figure out using discord. I am very excited to see that Mastodont Map, and I am very curious about mechanics you propose, it seems very good, but of course require playtest to see how ti will look like in practice.
I saw the video made by old Crow, and the screen you posted, and I am concerend about order de battalie for Polish troops. It seem a bit odd from the historical one. I read the comment you made on youtube, so I made a screen. The unit circled in red - polish inf division wasn't there. And those hexes marked with blueish strips were swamps. That was the whole idea of Mlawa position, it guarded the most suitable, and short way from Prussia to Warsaw. There are also many units missing, Polish Navy land troops, Pomorska cavalry brigade etc.
I got you with that it is hard for you to quickly and correctly verify the location, comparing diffrent maps. For me it is slightly easier, because In my teens I made myself hand-made, September campaign game, and I remember by heart where were the units.
The deployment of Polish army for scenario also need to fullfill the gameplay and mechanics. So I also understand the approach "not to represent everything to the latter". But if every German division is represented, therefore every Polish one should do so respectively. I don't think there are enough Polish units represented on the map.

Also I will give you a hint, since you made some Polish divisions second-line. In Polish Army of 1939, Divisions numbered from 1 to 30 were considered first-line regular, from 31-and above as "reserve". So 36th division which was in mobilization near Ostrowiec, you may treat as "second line" but 2nd division in Kielce should be first-line.
I also don't know why you understrength Polish first-line infantry divisions. Considering weaponry they were almost equal to German, germans had a bit more artillery (artillery regiments: Poland 36 pieces, germany 48). Although Polish divisions were strenghten just before the war with additional battalions of Obrona Narodowa (territorial defense) or independent Strzelec (Rifle) battalions. So some Polish divisions had 10, 11 battalions, while German had 9. In many games, Polish infantry divisions are understrength, which is in my opinion a mistake. The problem was that Germans were faster (on divisional level Polish Infantry had only 50 trucks, while Germans around 1000), and encirled them, before they could withdraw to new positions. Just as your main idea for this scenario intended. My point is, with what I saw on OCB video, is that, German player, instead of making pincer movement, is just breaking through Polish lines.

Anyways, it is your creation, and I am strongly supporting it. I am really looking forward how it will develop, and I understand it is still on infant-phase. (Although very beautiful). Let me know what do you think.
Cheers
Jazon
PS
I really appreciate the Eagles for Polish troops

Me too {re: Discord]. If Matrix had private playtesting subforums here I'd much rather stay here.

For all non-Russian European countries, to identify marshy areas I used a series of very detailed and hi-res land use maps available here:

https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps ... nd-changes

65 years of course can make a big difference of course, and while it does apparently show some small marshes (lakes?) in the areas you outlined, I have to average the terrain for a given hex for the majority terrain type in that specific hex, and here it looked to be mainly forested not marshy. (I can use forested marshes but the forest shading is just for show in the game engine) This, again, gets back to the frustrations of trying to track down information that is many decades old and may be lost for good in a lot of cases.

For the roads I again am relying on Google/Bing maps for the main highways, assuming that they will not have been massively re-routed in the intervening time, but of course again that is certainly not a given. So the main road from East Prussia to Warsaw goes through Mlawa then swings SE as it approaches Modlin and Warsaw because that is what I see on Google. I did find a contemporary source (those old country guidebooklets) chock full of WW2 era info, including many highway/rail maps from the 30's and 40's, but I just tried it now and got a security warning for my trouble.

Did get this one from the 40's, very zoomable and detailed, but only for Russia and bordering countries:

https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail ... erman-army

But as OCB told me it was not accurate in some cases (such as the missing rail line along the Caspian leading from Astrakhan southwards). IOW even if I do find a contemporary source it may not be any more accurate than a more modern one.

Same song third verse for which units had which capabilities (and as said where they were, exactly); some Wikipedia articles on WW2 national army force pools are very detailed in that regard; some not so much, and some don't exist at all for many countries. To a certain extent I followed vanilla's lead for the starting strength levels along with all the sources saying that Poland was not anywhere fully mobilized on Sept. 1st. I was toying with putting in more Polish divisions, but I also did leave out a fair % of German ones as well, fearful of bogging down gameplay with vanilla-style slogfests.

However note I am NOT in favor of deterministic gameplay here (where Poland and France are made so weak that their demise is a no-brainer cinch so that both sides can speed on their merry way to Barbarossa), but at the same time both sides now have the benefit of hindsight that their counterparts back then did not have, and given a redo Poland's leadership would have been sure to have pulled back most of their units from the border. I was actually toying with giving the first turn to the Allies, and allowing the Polish side a chance to redo their starting locations, something which has been de riguer in many games over the decades. [Note I have put in some Russian border garrison scripts so that we don't have to have automatic spawns of easy zero-supply victims on the 1st turn of Barbarossa]

Tl;dr I am often having to guess as to how roads/rails/terrain/unit dispositions are. Again, any and all information along these lines would certainly be appreciated.

I am a great admirer of this project, and I would like to share few thoughts. At first I will just make one remark, that about geographical issues I will write in private to Elassar, because i those details are not so important for this thread. If somebody is really deep into geography of wartime Poland, the condition of roads, railroad scheme, map of forests and swamps, please write me PM, I can share my resources and knowledge.

Here I would like mostly to refer to the game itself, and the scenario. As for condition of Polish Army and its readiness on the brink of World War Two:

To a certain extent I followed vanilla's lead for the starting strength levels along with all the sources saying that Poland was not anywhere fully mobilized on Sept.

This statement is partially true. Poland announced mobilization on 31th August 1939, the day before Germans launched their attack. According to polish historians, Polish Armed Forces mobilized 75% of its planned maximum. However Polish leadership was not surprised at all, and since Germans annexed remaining part of Czechoslovakia in march 1939, Polish army was mobilizing its forces in secret. Instead of calling to arms in newspapers and media, polish reservists started to individually receive letters from military authorities, calling soldiers for „exercises”. This process was on since spring 1939, and as you may guess, those soldiers which arrived for „exercises” remained in their units till the beginning of the war. How to understand this? Polish peace-time units, namely 30 infantry divisions (Numbered from 1 to 30, including 21st and 22nd divisions which were mountain divisions) , 3 independent mountain brigades, and many independent territorial battalions, 11 Cavalry brigades (they were stronger than German counterparts) and 10th Armoured Cavalry Brigade, 2 independent tank battalions (200 7TP tanks - equivalent for german Pz. 3), Border Guard Corps, as well as the Air Force and the Navy were mostly completed in personnel. This was 75%, and this units were operational before the war even broke out, due to the secret mobilization. They were in in field entrenchments across polish border. Navy destroyer squadron was sent to UK just before the war, according to „Peking” plan. Airplanes were moved to field airfields, so they avoided destroying on the ground when the Luftwaffe made its first strike. Those units were ready.
The units that actually started to mobilize since August 31st were „reserve” divisions (Numbered from 31 to 39), additional Armoured Calvary Brigade and territorial battalions. Those were those missing 25% of polish mobilization plan. Therefore Polish units at the start of the game should have entrenchment 1 (unless in fortification), and be full strength. Additional units should appear in production queue, and those could be under strength a bit, or even different category, as second-line infantry, because mobilization took place over German bombings, chaos etc.

The other thing is, Germans also weren’t 100% mobilized. Here is the short summary of German mobilization waves in 1939:
German Army (Heer) Infantry Mobiization ... relics.eu)
In 1939 Wehrmacht had 1-46 Peacetime Heer Units.
Welle . Formed Number of Divisions. Division Series Designation/notes.
2. August 39. 15 52-79 From reservists.
3. August 39. 22 199-246 Landwehr (older personnel).
4. August 39. 14 251-269 From reserve units.
5. September 39. 11 81-98 Reservists.
6. October 39. 6 307-341 All disbanded 1940.
7. December 39. 13 164-198 From reserve units.

We could debate if Polish infantry division was considerably weaker than German infantry division in September 1939. My opinion is that they had almost the same firepower, with slight advantage for Germans in artillery. I would agree though it was slower, because Polish infantry divisions depended on horse transport way more then German ones. (Polish Division had 50 cars, German around 1000). The perfect solution would be that polish divisions would have one action point less then german. I saw you gave German infantry divisions Infantry Weapons 1. Poles and Germans used the same rifle k98, Germans used MG34 and Poles Browning Automatic Rifle as a squad gun. Germans did have MP40’s but in 1939 only squad leader had it, so I wouldn’t consider this as a big advantage.

Germans also did have far more better communications, especially radios, when Poles strongly depended on wire communication(Polish division had as many radios as German...battalion). I would even agree that Polish divisions would have 2 action points less then German(because it took more time for Poles to organize attack or maneuver), but this is debatable. Its just my idea, and I would apply it to other minor allies countries, because it was the factor that gave Germans advantage over Poles, Belgians, French, Yugoslavians, Greeks etc., they were just operating faster. That would also encourage german player to encircle enemy, not just simply destroying units in frontal tank assaults.

Other way could be applying different levels of mechanization, which first level would be not so expensive, giving additional action points. Later in Barbarossa, and in vast Eastern front, German player, in order to cover large front may start „saving” MPP’s on mechanization of infantry, and this would also be historically accurate. But that’s just an idea.

However note I am NOT in favor of deterministic gameplay here (where Poland and France are made so weak that their demise is a no-brainer cinch so that both sides can speed on their merry way to Barbarossa), but at the same time both sides now have the benefit of hindsight that their counterparts back then did not have, and given a redo Poland's leadership would have been sure to have pulled back most of their units from the border. I was actually toying with giving the first turn to the Allies, and allowing the Polish side a chance to redo their starting locations, something which has been de riguer in many games over the decades.

Here actually lays one of the reason why Poland got badly in the September Campaign. Polish leadership couldn’t abandon Western Poland from couple of reasons. First, in the western part of the country lived German minority, and this fact was exploited by German propaganda, claiming that this minority was oppressed by „polish regime”, and thus should be liberated. Germany was also consequently denying Polish-German border established by Versailles Treaty. If Polish troops would withdraw from western Poland, local Germans inspired by Nazis could make some provocations, and call German Army to their aid. Therefore Poland would lost its most economically valued territory, without dragging in Western Allies into war, because, Germans could try to make another bloodless annexation, like they did with Czechia, Austria and Klaipeda/Memel. The whole Polish geopolitical plan to avoid war, was drew on the principle, that If, Germans really attack Poland, it must be war since the first minute, and it need to become a large European war, where Germans would need to face Britain and France. The logic behind this was, that it would scare away Hitler. We know it didn’t, but that was the circumstances in which it was decided to defend Poland all across its border. Generals weren’t happy about that, but it weren’t them to decide. The main reason was to avoid Czechoslovakian scenario, It had to be a „hot” war since very first moment.


So how many units on the map? Depends on the ratio you use. If 100% German divisions are represented on the map, therefore it should be the same for UK and France. I know Ellasar did not deployed all German forces too. That’s a matter to adjust after tests i guess, to check if the map is not to „thick” with units.

The deployment of Polish troops on the map is a bit inaccurate, the places and division numbers are not always correct. But in this matter of course we need to take into consideration the most important factor: play-ability. There is no point in putting everything supper accurate if it would ruin the game. Let’s us first test run it as it is, and se the outcome. Based on this, we can see how we can adjust the scenario so it would give players nice game and historical flavour. I do have my concerns about divisions, their numbers and names, but please understand, I am a nerd xD. It doesn’t matter if the game would work fine. I just guess we need to also have an idea, what impression we would like to give for the Allied and Axis players in this first turns of the game.
Because current opening with Poland is very predictable and boring. Let us shape this Crusade in Europe scenario beginning in something not that obvious. One thing, I already mentioned, would be to put polish units in mobilization on production queue. Therefore after German first attack, Allied player would have some flexibility were to deploy those reserves. It would also be historically accurate, because some polish divisions concentrated in the rear in first days of the war.

Another thing I would change, is that Poland surrenders after German capturing Warsaw. Bollocks. Poland did not capitulate before Germans, the Government run to exile through Romanian border. Remaining forces continued to fight, trying to get to Hungarian, Romanian or Latvian borders (those countries had friendly relations with Poland), so from there they could evacuate to France. And many them did, around 100k Poles run through neutral countries to Western Allies. Last Polish units fought till 2nd October and 5th October. Germans needed a full month to „clear up” the perimeter.
Soviet invasion - it should depend on German advance progress. Stalin was hesitating to join attack to Poland, because he was afraid what UK and france would do in that case. There should be territorial trigger for this event, mainly Germans reaching Vistula river line, the line which Ribbentrop-Molotov pact draw as a border between zone of influence of USRR and 3rd Reich.

Anyway its your project, and you can throw all this remarks in to the bin. I am just trying to give my insight, but I won’t be super serious about it. It’s just game that we enjoy, and I would like to add my effort to your magnificent work.
Cheers
Jazon

Jazon, I won't be peremptorily dismissing all of your concerns, and I do in fact appreciate them.

The tl;dr is that as you acknowledged only playtesting will reveal if the balance is right or not, and note I'll be commencing my first run-through tomorrow.

I had already planned to put some Polish units in the build queue, but for the moment had the ones designated as reserves near Warsaw and at lower strength, so that they can be reinforced instead. 6 of 1 half dozen of the other.

Same for unit strengths and entrenchments, and already planned to give the front-area units +1 on the latter. I'll see how my tests go before I crank their strengths to 100% tho.

I'll keep the German edge in Infantry Weapons, since just as crucial as having effective equipment is having the doctrine to use them optimally. I will likely give them an edge in Infantry Warfare as well (one of the moral techs on the right).

More in the PM I am about to send you. Again all input is appreciated.

I would love to play test this also. I'm retired from the military and have been playing this game since its release. I've played strategic war in Europe and time of fury, from a long time ago. I play WAW also. Ican devote my time to play test this game.

Glad to hear from you. Give this all a fortnight and I'll likely get back to everyone and officially call for testers at that point.

I think the best thing about Crusade in Europe was it was a time not a turn games.
Today AI I think could fix one situation I found.
If the German retreated to the rough terrain in Northeastern France.
Use weak infantries as block forces at river crossing.
The German Mech counterattack always wins.

do have a discord, we can all get on?

I am about to commence my own final solo run-through to find any errors, likely thru late '41 at the earliest. I would then indeed open up the Discord for invitees and let everyone go to town, but a new patch for the core game appears imminent, and I don't want to have everyone well into testing when it comes out, because some of my features will depend on certain engine fixes, and I'll just have to adjust if not overhaul certain things given what is in the patch, meaning everyone will have to start over.

So bear with me, please.

I am finish off my two year working on my Kaser vs Europa. Going to put the last versus out sometime early June. What a learning curve from units to national morale. Only changes will be script errors. I would like some comments on the games.
Are you going to look for history development only or fantasy game like the old Blitzkrit board game. If fantasy game a mech game or horse game if I am pick? I would like to do east vs west. With no history bases.

I have been thinking about a map from Ural to China Seas. Think of all thought campaign that took place out there.
So, any insight in planning, design and system work. These places so foreign to us western, what a map exercise.
Think of the Genghis Khan campaigns or the Chinese Muslim's wars.

Yes, still working on my beastie. Battle of France May 1940:



As said, will gather the gang together on Discord once the new patch is out and I reconcile my scenario with whatever changes will be made in the game engine.

Right now just playtesting and blasting any bugs that come up. So far no major issues, balance in terms of income, tech, and combat seems to be fine. I do have a dilemma with UK/US infantry: since both countries eventually motorized (if not mechanized) all their infantry, I have wanted to put pretty much all front-line infantry in the mechanized slot, and give them 2 upgrades: foot infantry --> motorized --> mechanized, but either the final level there will get 3 attacks, or the first level won't get any at all, at least right away. I'll see how the big clash above goes, which if things get bogged down may mean tanks and mechs both get 3 attacks.

More to come...

Hope not out of line. But I use build limits and research to address with situation. No build limits on leg infantry. So, the leg infantry that start the game are not replace. Reseach use to bring online mech units. By increasing from 0 build limit to have research increase build limits.
Would be nice if game came with upgrade mode or have a research mode which change target type of a units.
Another situation is having hidden location do not show any thing to the opposing side, until spotted or occupy.

I would love to play test the map. if i could my discord is wagonmaker 7803. you can get a hold of me there.
Thanks.

I am just waiting on the patch, as I commence another test run after numerous fixes. Appreciate the interest.

EDIT: I just noticed the patch was released a month ago-here I had been scanning the topic lists weekly, but somehow missed it. Alas I have some more personal stuff commencing in a week or so, and another 1-2 weeks after that. Look for the invites to go out around the middle of August.

EDIT2: Not sure if a more comprehensive patch will be out later this summer since this one only has 3 fixes. Note there is no matching W@W patch for some odd reason. There were two fixes I was hoping for (turning off shell replenishment in tech slot #21), and no more free sub cruisings, but for the former I simply gave artillery 2 tech levels, 1 extra shell per level, so the auto max reloads aren't as troublesome.

There will be a more comprehensive patch in due course, at least a little bit after the Pacific game has been released.

Thanks. That is what I gathered.

Looks really massively interesting.
I'm curious to see how it will play. But the playing time looks more like retirement.

TRP has 30 turns per year, mine will have 37. Yeah, quite a few more units but early testing shows it shouldn't be too overwhelming.

Ok, that calms me down a bit.
I'm currently playing the WDS Normandy`44 campaign with 250 rounds. You know what you have to do.