Matrix Games Forums

boldairade wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 4:46 pm

sveint wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 4:34 pm If you guys want to talk history, the Germans suffered about a million casualties in 1941. Far far FAR more than in WarPlan or any other game I've ever played. So in that respect the game is far easier than history.

Most figures put German TOTAL casualties during Barbarossa at 1 million

Of course the bulk of those came on the defensive post Citadel/stalingrad

Total Russian casualties about 4.5 times that and an awful lot of those coming in 41

So actually I’d say WP does a pretty fair job of being realistic

The million is only for Barbarossa (i.e. 1941). Nothing to do with Stalingrad or Kursk. They took ~7 Million casualties on the Eastern front in the war. Russian was close to 40 million, with half of those being civilians.

MattFL wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 4:59 pm

boldairade wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 4:46 pm

sveint wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 4:34 pm If you guys want to talk history, the Germans suffered about a million casualties in 1941. Far far FAR more than in WarPlan or any other game I've ever played. So in that respect the game is far easier than history.

Most figures put German TOTAL casualties during Barbarossa at 1 million

Of course the bulk of those came on the defensive post Citadel/stalingrad

Total Russian casualties about 4.5 times that and an awful lot of those coming in 41

So actually I’d say WP does a pretty fair job of being realistic

The million is only for Barbarossa (i.e. 1941). Nothing to do with Stalingrad or Kursk. They took ~7 Million casualties on the Eastern front in the war. Russian was close to 40 million, with half of those being civilians.

Meant to delete that my OP covered a lot of ground and really was off topic.

The one million I was speaking of is 41 only.

My guess is a lot of that was typhoon too.

Again all that works toward WP handling 41 Barbarossa pretty well

sveint wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 4:34 pm If you guys want to talk history, the Germans suffered about a million casualties in 1941. Far far FAR more than in WarPlan or any other game I've ever played. So in that respect the game is far easier than history.

Indeed.

[/quote]

Of course the bulk of those came on the defensive post Citadel/stalingrad

[/quote]

Sorry but no, this is a persistant myth. The early stages of Barbarossa saw just as heavy casualties. The fighting was hard from the start.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_ca ... rld_War_II

The main issues with Russia will likely now be...

1) Weather. Still a mess
2) Russia slowing Germany far to quickly and the balance swinging to quickly.
Balancing this is extremely difficult...

It will likely have to cause the Russians to be messed with again...perhaps weaking attack early...and added in 43 and left with the higher defense...

At least that has been my impression once the Russians get the upper hand...

But I am in my first game, and we will see.

Why is the weather a mess?

Weather wise...

A random cold turn in the middle of November or December is a back breaker against the Russians...at least it used to be.

The Germans would just mow over their units as they were still weak in late 41.

There should never be a turn like that in Russia...always rain for the most part to keep the movement slowed as it was since the roads were terrible.

PanzerMike wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 6:52 am Why is the weather a mess?

Not everyone agrees with this assertion

Sorry but no, this is a persistant myth. The early stages of Barbarossa saw just as heavy casualties. The fighting was hard from the start.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_ca ... rld_War_II
[/quote]

This is fairly easy

41 casualties middle of the road figures

Germany roughly 1 million

Russia 4.5 million

Germany suffered close to 50% of those in the assault on Moscow and the ensuing Russian counter offensive. Some estimates would put that percentage significantly higher but I am being very conservative.

Russia lost just under 1 million men in the battle for Moscow

Simple math again rounding in favor of your incorrect assertion puts pre Moscow casualties at

Roughly 500k Germany

3.5 million for Russia

A very easy calculation 7-1

Since most German players are not foolish enough to attempt a winter assault on Moscow that is the number I land on

And currently I think WP is pretty close

With the new ‘balance’ ? I have no idea

But to get back to my original very simple concern-

A player stated it was ‘like fighting early UK units’

If true there is no way you could achieve anything close to this historical result

stjeand wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 11:59 am Weather wise...

A random cold turn in the middle of November or December is a back breaker against the Russians...at least it used to be.

The Germans would just mow over their units as they were still weak in late 41.

There should never be a turn like that in Russia...always rain for the most part to keep the movement slowed as it was since the roads were terrible.

I disagree with this. One cold turn in my experience is just enough to get the Germans in trouble as they penetrate the line and then get hit with a bad weather turn, out of supply, cut off etc. I think the weather is fine and i've seen extreme winters and somewhat (relatively speaking) mild winters. I think the weather is fine.

boldairade wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 1:18 pm
But to get back to my original very simple concern-

A player stated it was ‘like fighting early UK units’

If true there is no way you could achieve anything close to this historical result

No. You misread me. The problem was that it was way too easy to achieve far better than historical results prior to the scenario change. Now, the results are more in line with history.

Nobody is speaking of the terrain. Alas the map won’t change now.

ncc1701e wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 4:40 pm Nobody is speaking of the terrain. Alas the map won’t change now.

I am playing my own latest mod againat the AI. I'm my mod, the terrain has changed a little, but the biggest difference is Moscow is a lot further away. I am waiting to see what difference that makes.

ncc1701e wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 4:40 pm Nobody is speaking of the terrain. Alas the map won’t change now.

What's wrong with the terrain?

Excellent! Let us know.

Earlier in the thread, somebody was mentioning that Russians are now too strong too quickly. That’s why I was willing to introduce events to enhance army’s defensive factor progressively. But, de facto, the new value is there now. Also, I don’t know why Rifle Corps defensive value was changed. It helps German attack at first. Otherwise, they are bugged quickly.

USSR

MattFL wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 5:39 pm

ncc1701e wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 4:40 pm Nobody is speaking of the terrain. Alas the map won’t change now.

What's wrong with the terrain?

The map is wrong. Moscow in the game is where Bryansk is in real life.

PanzerMike wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 5:44 pmUSSR

Approved!

boldairade wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 1:11 pm

PanzerMike wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 6:52 am Why is the weather a mess?

Not everyone agrees with this assertion

That is fine...it is my assertion.

England gets snow for 2 months almost every winter...they should rarely get snow, let alone 4 turns worth.

Coastal rarely get snow compared to inland, they normally get rain due to the ocean temp.

There should never be a "cold" turn in Russia without some weather effect. There should be mud or something. German tanks were not great in the snow. Getting full movement in December for a turn is devastating. I have won many games just because of one cold turn. I have surrounded dozens of armies when this happens...
April in Russia should be mud...or snow or rain. I have again had 2 clear turns in April as the Germans and this is again game changing.
I have even had a game in 1941 with a clear April, then clear October and 1 turn clear in December...The Russians were almost in the Urals in that game in 41...they had lost Moscow, Leningrad, Rostov and the Germans were heading for Grozny and Stalingrad...the game was over.

I am all for some random weather but from a blizzard to clear in Russia? Just can't happen.

As for the map...correct it that is great..I am all for that.

\Many forget that the Germans on average get 1 extra month in 1941 to attack...which they did not get in history. Adding another turn in there at any point? That is just too overwelming.

Another issue is rail repair in blizzards...not sure that was happening...and likely should not, at least for the Germans.

Understand...I LOVE the game but to keep changing units when the fundamentals are some of the main issues, at least for me, is a problem.

MattFL wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2024 4:18 pm I disagree with this. One cold turn in my experience is just enough to get the Germans in trouble as they penetrate the line and then get hit with a bad weather turn, out of supply, cut off etc. I think the weather is fine and i've seen extreme winters and somewhat (relatively speaking) mild winters. I think the weather is fine.

That is your opinion and this is mine.

I have never had a problem with the German breakthrough in Russia during a cold turn other than 1 time...so 1 out of 40+ games is not bad.

The bad weather is what they want to keep the Russians from being able to counter attack. Supply is too easy to keep if you know the tricks.

I have seen rough games and clear games...the issue is clear turns in times they should not be is all. Fix November and December in Russia and rain in April and all will be good.