Matrix Games Forums

Leumas06 wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 1:40 pm Should be some kind of issue displaying CV in the combat. That unit was displaying in the map, if I remember correctly, 10-12 CV. It was supplyed and higher than 50 CPP so 2 CV seem for me ridiculous.

On-map CV estimates do not take into account the undocumented 41-42 winter rules for Axis pre-battle disruption, so the CVs there are greatly inflated compared to the combat CVs. Axis SUs are unaffected by these rules.

If the case is German SUs arent being affected by 1st winter rules---this needs to be fixed in the game otherwise it is super easy to be abused by German players to nullify any Soviet offensive in the 1st winter....just pull back mostly across the front and then concentrate all your SUs into a couple different points to counterattack and cause massive soviet damage since your SUs still get good CV and massive effects while the divisions arent actually contributing much since they are disrupted by the winter rules.

Would say this needs fixed for sure---as otherwise German units dont need forts just rely on attacking with SUs.

SU's ARE AFFECTED by winter rules. What you are seeing with the SU's is that they are coming from OKH the turn they are used.

Then just rotate them out the next

You guys have to be accurate with statements.
Special 41/42 Winter rules are applied in Heavy Snow Hexes.
But they are manifold.
There is:

1. lower defensive CV (can be seen in Unit Card/Counter) [....don't forget about the normal weather modifier for attacker-CV - but that's no "special rule"]
2. pre-battle-DISruption (like during cross river attacks but "larger") on attacks/defences (which is not mentioned in the manual at all)
3. higher Attrition rates during logistics/movements (+whatnot)
4. less supply/ammo received (through less freight at depots and more MP spent by trucks)

So you need to specify which rule you are referring to when making statements.

Doing some testing on this.

The first combat value on the battle screen is incorrect; it is devalued. That is why it appears to be being inflated in combats. The '3' should be higher, making the '11' more reasonable. I set up a test bed using the Typhoon start and doing attacks with the 5 displayed mot regiments multiple times.
The average display CV from the map, before doing attacks is 2.3. The average final CV in the combat results screen was 5.5. So 24% of the display CV which seems reasonable for a heavy snow attack.

I then reran the test but attaching an SU to the mot regiments.
The average CVs of the 5 SUs was 0.6
So now the figures are:
The average display CV from the map, before doing attacks is 2.9 (2.3 + 0.6). The average final CV in the combat results screen was 12. So 41% of the display CV.
Or to put it another way, the map units are contributing 24% of their map CV to the combat while the SUs are contributing 125% of their map CV to the combat. Conclusion.
SUs in this case are 5 times more effective than map units during heavy snow. The effect is similar if they are assigned to the HQ and being activated by the combat as to when they are directly to the combat unit.


I would also query this rule:

In addition, once in combat, there are admin and land combat rating checks
made. For each failed check, the defence value is modified an additional time.

Axis took a beating towards the end of Typhoon when they were attacking during the snow. If they had attempted to attack during the blizzard it would not have gone well. Probably in the past players had not caught onto it that the first winter combat rule only applied to defending and not to attacking. Seems like there is an advantage for Axis to take advantage of this and attack during the blizzard, could we have this rule changed so that the malus effects attack value as well as defence value ?

tyronec wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 11:32 am Doing some testing on this.

The first combat value on the battle screen is incorrect; it is devalued. That is why it appears to be being inflated in combats. The '3' should be higher, making the '11' more reasonable.
a.jpg

I set up a test bed using the Typhoon start and doing attacks with the 5 displayed mot regiments multiple times.
The average display CV from the map, before doing attacks is 2.3. The average final CV in the combat results screen was 5.5. So 24% of the display CV which seems reasonable for a heavy snow attack.

EDIT: never mind, I've read the updated post.

We've been looking into this, and so far have the same thoughts. Somehow, the attacking CV value is being greatly reduced in the start of battle combat value, but then it adjusts back up (but is still reduced some). So far it appears that the system was set up to add disruption to the attacking units that attacked into a heavy snow hex (so unlike the weather/road modifier of the attacker that is based on the attacker's hex). It does appear that the support units and committing reserve units are not taking this disruption, and this part was not intended (all the units should take it if any take it). We plan on making these units suffer the same penalty based on the defender's hex snow level. Not sure what we will be able to do with the displayed values (on the map, in the rollover and at the start of combat in the battle report). This disruption effect, on the attacker and the defender, was never documented, but it's been intended and in since release. I can say that this disruption goes until the end of Feb 42 and that is WAD. We're not through all the analysis on this, but we have saves and can see the situation, so we hope to get it sorted in the next update.

That is great news Joel !

Joel Billings wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 6:26 pm It does appear that the support units and committing reserve units are not taking this disruption, and this part was not intended (all the units should take it if any take it). We plan on making these units suffer the same penalty based on the defender's hex snow level.

So it is not overlooked: SUs don't get winter disruption penalties when defending either.

Jango32 wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 8:00 pm

Joel Billings wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 6:26 pm It does appear that the support units and committing reserve units are not taking this disruption, and this part was not intended (all the units should take it if any take it). We plan on making these units suffer the same penalty based on the defender's hex snow level.

So it is not overlooked: SUs don't get winter disruption penalties when defending either.

As well as not taking Cross River DISruption (same TOE of a Tank Division/NONMOT (1) Unit, Brigade size (so I can attatch).
Attached an example with 2 Divisions and one with the same guys made "Briage Size" and attached the one to the other (Editor Magic!!! ).