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Wait a second - are you saying that the IJN has sent only four carriers to Midway instead of nine in respect of the Japanese Bushido code of Honor which demands offering the USN a fair fight?

What https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuo_Fuchida later said about so called "victory disease" have some truth in it, though he was very much debunked to be lying and distorting facts about Midway battle.

It was not only makers of Shattered Sword but also other historians (also in Japan) that debunked him.

As I said, had full Kido Butai been in Coral Sea or in Midway, it'd be very difficult to see how USN could have won those battles. Especially since Coral Sea with those odds would most likely have USN to lose 2 CVs.

Not that it'd have changed final outcome, but might have delayed it.

LargeSlowTarget wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2025 4:22 pm Wait a second - are you saying that the IJN has sent only four carriers to Midway instead of nine in respect of the Japanese Bushido code of Honor which demands offering the USN a fair fight?

What's funny is technically the Japanese did use eight carriers in the overall Midway operation. But they frittered them all over the North Pacific in unsupporting task forces in a fruitless attempt at deception. A little too much Sun Tzu philosophy when blunt, concentrated force would have been the better option

MKmark wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2025 4:33 pm (just like Hitler in Kurks who later abandoned 5 elite divisions surrounded by Stalingrad.)

Stalingrad happened after Kursk?

Not to mention Germany lost bit more than 5 divisions in Stalingrad...they lost whole 6th Army and then some.

But I digress.

While IJN had some useful carriers outside Kido Butai, basically all others were "ugly stepsisters" to them.

It was KB that represented their edge over USN (since they were really good and well-trained thing operating together). Once they had diminished first at Coral Sea and then at Midway, there was not possibility for IJN to get that edge back.

It is wise for Japan-player to take good care of KB, since next fleet carrier is long way to come from shipyard. And USN will be getting Essex-class ones pretty regularly.

Sardaukar wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2025 11:41 pm

Nazcatraz wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 2:21 pm6 vs 4.

USS Saratoga was hit with torpedo Jan 11 1942 and was out for permanent repairs and upgrades at Bremerton Navy Yard from 9 February until June 1942.

So, 3 CVs max available.

Had Coral Sea not happened, Lexington would have still been there. Yorktown + Lexington + Hornet + Enterprise = 4.

MKmark wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:08 am

Platoonist wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2025 5:16 pm

MKmark wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2025 4:33 pm (just like Hitler in Kurks who later abandoned 5 elite divisions surrounded by Stalingrad.)

Stalingrad happened after Kursk?

Mira que me jode dar explicaciones..

A ver "by stalingrad" is the google translation that says that in kurks happend the same as Stalingrad

and yes Sardaukar..in Stalingrad 750.000 about...15 divisiones

and In kurks 1943.. Hitler after the battle; 5 divisions elite panzers where encircle and surrender. i mean They could have escaped after the battle but Hitler told them not to retreat.

source: trust me bro.

Seriously, just no...

None of those numbers match historical records.

MKmark: they killed everyone and took 30,000 captive

Those two 'facts' contradict each other, so one does not know what to believe and doubts everything else in the post. Just sayin'...

Lets just say that most don't get their history education from Youtube...or TikTok.

Posts here seem to imply it was the Germans that lost at Stalingrad when it was an Axis loss. Figures vary as you can imagine but here's the figures I have with wounded unknown.

German dead 264K + wounded? Captured 60K
Rumania dead 70K + wounded? Captured 50K
Hungary dead 47K + wounded? Captured 70K
Italy dead 90K + 43K wounded. Captured 65K

The end result was a catastrophic defeat for the Axis with Rumania and Hungary lossing nearly all of their total army, putting them out of the war (on the Axis side). If you want to translate those captured into division go ahead. German infantry divisions at that time was around 17.5K none ever did have that number.

For the Soviets dead 478K + 651K wounded.

As to Kursk there's nothing I've ever read to suggest Hitler abandoned his troops as he did at Stalingrad. He halted the attack, transferring some panzer unit to Italy due to the invasion of Scily.

The battle of Kursk is in fact four offenses, Zitadelle, the German operation against Kursk, and three Soviet offenses against Orel, Kharkov and the Dombas triggered once the Germans were fully engaged in Zitadelle. The overall figures seem to be in the region of: German losses amount to 203K dead or wounded and 1200 tanks and Soviet losses 1200K dead or wounded and 7000 tanks. Again figures vary depending on who you read and how they were defined. Most of the Soviet losses occurred during their offenses with their command still making frontal attacks. Huge losses but the Soviets could replace them, Germany could not.

For operation Zittadelle German losses are around 54K and 500 panzers while Soviet losses were approx three times greater, 170K and 1600 tanks. In fact the Germans made little progress into the Kursk salient meeting heavy defensive lines, up to 110Km in places.

About Zitadelle casualties, there is this very good book:

https://www.amazon.com/Kursk-1943-Stati ... 714650528/

Interestingly, south pincer of Zitadelle inflicted lot more casualties to Soviets than they suffered, despite attacking very heavily fortified and mined multiple defence lines.

This illustrates that in summer 1943, Germans were still tactically more proficient than Soviets.

Things were pretty much even in 1944 tactically and from that on, Soviets had gained an edge. Operationally Soviets were also very good in 1944.

MKmark wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:23 am

Sardaukar wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 12:08 pm Seriously, just no...

None of those numbers match historical records.

DUNE, don't get upset, update yourself, what is written is no longer useful. There are new books, documentaries, specialized magazines, etc. In Kursk the battle ended in a draw: 3,000 Nazi tanks against 4,000 T34s of multiple versions, but Hitler abandoned the 5 Panzer divisions because he told them to stay there until they surrendered. In Moscow, 300,000 Germans arrived to see Red Square through binoculars, but the Russian counterattack with Zhukov and his Siberian troops broke through them and it ended there barbarously because they killed everyone and took 30,000 captive. In Stalingrad, 750,000 men were abandoned by Hitler when they were pierced by the Italian and Romanian flanks. There are so many decisions made by the crazy Hitler (this is what is being said in Munich at the moment - I come from the October party in 2024, they now call him the "crazy Führer" and his apartment has been bought by the city council in front of the opera). Well, Hitler stopped trusting his troops so that they would never withdraw to give time to his new weapons, he only trusted the new weapons, not his soldiers, and German manufacturing, its industry, was ARTISANAL (they only built 2,000 Tigers while the Russians built 50,000 tanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1CsDW0YImo

Where do these new books, documentaries, specialized magazines, etc. get their numbers from? Not from historical sources it seems. Alternative facts maybe?

A mass surrender of 5 German Panzer Divisions at Kursk is unheard of - however, even older "no longer useful" books would know about such an unusual event, don't you think? Could you please indicate the source of this nonsense?

750.000 men abandoned by Hitler at Stalingrad - that is about three times too high! In 1942 on the Eastern Front, Germany has fielded 12 Armies with about 3 Million men. Putting 750.000 men or fully one-fourth of the entire manpower into one single Army wouldn't make any sense for command, operational, logistical and administrative reasons.

The 6. Armee had about 250.000 men when engaged in the Stalingrad operation. 100.000 died in combat, 42.000 wounded and specialists got evacuated by air, the Soviets made 17.000 prisoners before the end of the battle and 91.000 men - many wounded - surrendered. For the records, of the 108.000 POWs, only 6000 survived captivity. Even if counting all the Romanians and Italians at the flanks plus the 4. Panzer-Armee engaged in the attempt to rescued the surrounded 6. Armee you won't arrive at 750.000 men!

EDIT: And German manufacturing wasn't "ARTISANAL" - it was largely forced labour. Furthermore, if you count total number of Russian tanks built, you must count total number of German tanks against it, not just the Tigers. The only thing in your post that cannot be contested is that Hitler was crazy!

Niklas Zetterling is a pretty renown author and researcher so I am sure he is not making stuff up out of thin air.

bro really play a hoi4 campaign and said "this is canon now"

"Very very German sources but not books"...well, then it's have to be in séance or something similar, since about all Germans living adult life that time are dead.

Today's German generals have very little to do with WW II history.

MKmark wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2025 1:58 am [...]That is why I put music on for you to relax. In due time, you will be answered respectfully, one by one.[...]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YVvcTIGy40

Now sorry but Techno / Electro or whatever it is called what you have posted is definitely not the right music for me to relax. I prefer Japanese music, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhMamN_DBO4

I am curious to learn about your German sources, please post the sources in original German language as I suspect your use of Google Translate results in things "lost in translation".

First thing I do with any game is 'turn the b$^&^$ music off'. If want to listen to music I listen.

Chris21wen wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 6:02 am First thing I do with any game is 'turn the b$^&^$ music off'. If want to listen to music I listen.

I have my own music that I play....GP