Page 2 of 3
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:16 pm
by JJKettunen
ORIGINAL: Charles_22
This sort of thing ought to be interesting come CL, because CL will have 6 weapons slots. I'm curious if each weapon will have men dedicated to them? Of course if there's only one LMG man, and gets knocked out, perhaps a rifle man switches to the LMG. I'm not sure CL is going to be 'that' detailed.
CM is that detailed.
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 11:12 pm
by Charles2222
ORIGINAL: Keke
ORIGINAL: Charles_22
This sort of thing ought to be interesting come CL, because CL will have 6 weapons slots. I'm curious if each weapon will have men dedicated to them? Of course if there's only one LMG man, and gets knocked out, perhaps a rifle man switches to the LMG. I'm not sure CL is going to be 'that' detailed.
CM is that detailed.
After I wrote that post, I thought it could be easily misunderstood, so now I'll clarify. I think in SPWAW, when one man is lost in the squad, the LMG NEVER gets unmanned. IOW, if you pretend the lost man was an LMG, a rifleman
always takes his place, unless there's only one man left when losses are tallied, which, if CL did 'what I said' on the prior post, it would be nothing new. So, having said that, what I meant was that the detail would come in where there were individual soldiers names assigned to each gun. If Pvt. Biggles if manning a rifle and one of his LMG mate goes down, then Biggles wouldn't show as rifle anymore, but as the LMG man. Hmm, seems like adding individual names to guns, I'm guessing, isn't worth the return. Perhaps it would only be worth it if there was a chance the men were pinned down enough that nobody could reach the LMG where it had fallen. I don't think CL will be 'that' complex is what I meant, where you have a large database just for random names to guns.
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 3:32 pm
by RockinHarry
Ok, here´s test scens 344 and 345, as well as tweaked V7.11 OOBs for germany and soviet union. These OOBs only have the "Mixed Rifle/LMG" and "Bayonet" weapons added to unused weapon slots and won´t hurt any V7.11 compatible scenarios.
I had planned to make some dedicated sound sets for the "new" weapons, but have not come to it yet. I´ll provide them at a later time.
Scen 344 has a reinforced german 1941 infantry platoon dug in, defending vs a soviet reinforced infantry company (no tank support). Both sides have the "Mixed Rifle" substituting the standard rifle in slot1 and the slot2 LMG is removed (odd weapon might show up now, but it has no ammo, so don´t bother!). Standard historic ratings (experience/morale) for 1941 are in effect.
Play germans or russians if you like and see how it plays.
Scen 345 is the same as 344, but uses standard weapon configuration (slot1=rifle, slot2=LMG).
Play both scens subsequentially and repeatedly and note any differences in "game play" please!
as always...file needs to be renamed to *.zip extension so it can be unzipped! (I hate this procedure...[8|] )
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 3:34 pm
by RockinHarry
ORIGINAL: Kevin E. Duguay
Igor,
It was something I toyed with but found to be impractical for your above stated reasons. Players would almost have to keep the two units of their squads either together in the same hex of at least as close together as possible. People not sure about historical tactics could end up with a bunch of 2 man LMG team all over the place and no where near their parent units. Just think about how hard it is to keep your platoons together inside a company formation, now double the units!! Nightmare!![X(] Might work in a very small scenario but anything bigger than a few platoons? Forget it!
Key Kevin, your idea is worth to try! Would you provide us with some test scenario of yours?[:)] Might be that couple of other gamne stats need to be tweaked to get your idea working better!
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 3:36 pm
by RockinHarry
ORIGINAL: Keke
ORIGINAL: Charles_22
This sort of thing ought to be interesting come CL, because CL will have 6 weapons slots. I'm curious if each weapon will have men dedicated to them? Of course if there's only one LMG man, and gets knocked out, perhaps a rifle man switches to the LMG. I'm not sure CL is going to be 'that' detailed.
CM is that detailed.
Keke..do you mean CM=Combat Mission, or Combat Leader=CL (as Charles_22 meant)?
While we are on the matter, how well do you think deals the Combat Mission (battlefront.com) game with the squad LMG?[&:]
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 3:46 pm
by Kevin E. Duguay
RochinHarry,
I'll try to whip a "little" something up for your entertainment. But when I do , how do I get it into your hands? Make a suggestion or send me instructions and I will follow!![;)]
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:24 pm
by JJKettunen
ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Keke..do you mean CM=Combat Mission, or Combat Leader=CL (as Charles_22 meant)?
While we are on the matter, how well do you think deals the Combat Mission (battlefront.com) game with the squad LMG?[&:]
CM = Combat Mission
It has the combined firepower you are looking for...And no, its not that detailed as having individual men manning individual weapons. When losses mount squads tend to keep most valuable weapons, like LMGs, over rifles and such.
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:49 am
by Kevin E. Duguay
I have something whipped up, now I have to deliver it. How?
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:13 am
by Wild Bill
Don't ever go anywhere, Harry. Your innovativeness is much needed in this community. You've added so many good things to this game!
WB
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:56 pm
by Tombstone
So the practical results of this mixed rifle concept will be a tendancy to do more casualties to units on the move, and that infantry will tend to inflict less overall suppression on other units. Right? Damn, it sounds like a no brainer. What are the general thoughts about infantry combat in SPWAW right now? It often feels like hammering away with small arms fire until the unit retreats, then... easy kill. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and it means that a couple of squads have difficulty pushing a single entrenched squad out of its position. I guess it degenerates once you get a lot of units in the field though, cause my 20 infantry units can concentrate their fire on 2 squads and make them retreat, then I can occupy those positions and my 20 infantry squads can massacre 20 entrenched units along a line. This mixed rifle thing would help to mitigate this... man it sounds like such a good idea. THEN you can make assault squads that have more weapon slots full and it will simulate much more offensive infantry squads that would have a REAL effect when used on the offensive.
Tomo
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:00 pm
by Rune Iversen
ORIGINAL: Tombstone
So the practical results of this mixed rifle concept will be a tendancy to do more casualties to units on the move, and that infantry will tend to inflict less overall suppression on other units. Right? Damn, it sounds like a no brainer. What are the general thoughts about infantry combat in SPWAW right now? It often feels like hammering away with small arms fire until the unit retreats, then... easy kill. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and it means that a couple of squads have difficulty pushing a single entrenched squad out of its position. I guess it degenerates once you get a lot of units in the field though, cause my 20 infantry units can concentrate their fire on 2 squads and make them retreat, then I can occupy those positions and my 20 infantry squads can massacre 20 entrenched units along a line. This mixed rifle thing would help to mitigate this... man it sounds like such a good idea. THEN you can make assault squads that have more weapon slots full and it will simulate much more offensive infantry squads that would have a REAL effect when used on the offensive.
Tomo
What kind of range would this hybrid weapon possess?
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:44 am
by Kevin E. Duguay
I just did a test with my crazy system and it took much longer to wipe out a squad. Also all weapons had a chance to fire. Even the AI tried to keep units together. I have a scenario, how do I get it to all of you to test??[&:] I can follow instructions, please let me know.!!
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:48 am
by Tombstone
The range? Dunno, but my first guess would be 8-12 hexes. My first opinion would lean toward 8 cause I think too much action happens at the limit of rifle range in SPWAW. The LMG shouldn't go much farther than the rifles for practical use reasons.
Tomo
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:57 am
by Kevin E. Duguay
There is an old book about a little Canadian raid on a French port city in 1942. Please read it. They talk about Bren gunners being called on to shoot at targets a bit farther away than would be nornal rifle range. The gunners took them out or in some cases totally supressed them so other troops could take the possition. Diep Was a bitch! my Dad just missed that one!!
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:04 am
by Tombstone
I know there are instances, but I think it makes the game SPWAW play that way ALL the time. Practically speaking the game plays ahistorically as a result. If we reduced the ranges to something modelling practice rather than technical effective ranges we'd get a better result out of the game. That being said, there should also be lmg sections that have the full range for their weapons for exactly this reason. Thank goodness your Dad wasn't at Dieppe, everything I read about it makes me feel sorry for our allies that went down there. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it's an excellent idea.
Rockin Harry is just that... Rockin.
BTW, these kinds of solutions are exactly the kind of thing people should be thinking of... we're in the late stage of this products life cycle (probably later than most games ever get really) and now is the time to find out clever ways to take whats here and make better of it.
Tomo
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:11 am
by Kevin E. Duguay
Any body going to tell me how to post a senario??[:(]
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:18 am
by Rune Iversen
ORIGINAL: Tombstone
The range? Dunno, but my first guess would be 8-12 hexes. My first opinion would lean toward 8 cause I think too much action happens at the limit of rifle range in SPWAW. The LMG shouldn't go much farther than the rifles for practical use reasons.
Tomo
But the LMG can and does go farther out than the rifles, both for the purposes of killing, but more importantly for suppression.
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:48 pm
by JJKettunen
ORIGINAL: Tombstone
I know there are instances, but I think it makes the game SPWAW play that way ALL the time. Practically speaking the game plays ahistorically as a result. If we reduced the ranges to something modelling practice rather than technical effective ranges we'd get a better result out of the game.
Ditto.
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:59 pm
by RockinHarry
ORIGINAL: Keke
ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Keke..do you mean CM=Combat Mission, or Combat Leader=CL (as Charles_22 meant)?
While we are on the matter, how well do you think deals the Combat Mission (battlefront.com) game with the squad LMG?[&:]
CM = Combat Mission
It has the combined firepower you are looking for...And no, its not that detailed as having individual men manning individual weapons. When losses mount squads tend to keep most valuable weapons, like LMGs, over rifles and such.
Yeah, i think it works quite well there in the game...IMHO! If the the LMG guy is incapacitated then another guy steps in taking the LMG IIRC. I doubt whether all that micromanagement really can be worked into a game. Even original SL game had some problems with it.
RE: Mixed rifle concept
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:01 pm
by RockinHarry
ORIGINAL: Kevin E. Duguay
Any body going to tell me how to post a senario??[:(]
sorry Kevin, I´m somewhat late to respond![:(] Just zip your test scen (and possibly the tweaked OOB if needed) and rename it to have a file extension that is allowed to be posted on the MatrixGames board. Just let people know about that and it should work. You can also send the scen (or files) to me and I´ll check them out!
harizan@web.de