Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

There are an endless variety of "ahistorical start" options that COULD be offered.
My dissappointment is that most of the ones 2bu3 have chosen are at least mildly
Pro-Japanese..., and none of them reflect the most obvious historical possibilities.
Which are that Enterprise isn't delayed by refueling difficulties and returns to PH
on time (to be in port on the 7th), or, that the Kido Butai IS spotted sneaking across
the North Pacific and having lost "suprise" is forced to terminate it's "manuevers"
and return to Japan. Either are more likely than the operations proposed.

Mike I would agree in includeing both those options, but disagree that none of the proposed options were likely. Option 1 closely resembles the opening phase of Kmmels's
WP-46, This was the plan of operation for the PacFleet at the onset of War. If PH had not been attacked it most likely would have been his initial deployment. It certainly is in the realm of likelyhood that, Kimmel seeing the war most immanent might very well have initiated this 1st phase prior to attack.

The 2nd option would have been the most likely deployment of the Fleet, if KB had been spotted in its approach . The PacFleet concentrated somewhere in the vacinity of the HI ready to take on this rather small detachment of the IJN head on. Really it was every USN Op-planners wet dream to be able to concentrate the whole fleet against a portion of the combined fleet away from its home waters. Something they thought Japan would never be so foolish to do. I do think that a definite no surprise should be included into this option because I just do see a reason to deploy in this manner unless the IJN TF had been sighted.

Option 3, could have happened if the the decision to reinforce Wake and Midway had simply taken place earlier (say November) or if the reinforcement had been delayed altogether for one reason or another.

ACTUALLY, FRAG..., I'm afraid that I would have to call getting 1/3rd of their available
CV's in the whole world caught in PH and blown to bits to be "massively bad" for the
Allies---probably THE most "massively bad" result available in the whole spectrum.
I don't see a 6:2 CV battle (especially with early war US airgroups) being quite as
scary as being caught in port with your "pants down".

Mike, you are missing the point that even if they are caught in PH, there is no sure rule that states they will actually be sunk. I have had many many PH's where not a single ship went down. They were hurt, but nothing sunk. You also miss the bigger picture, that these sunk CV's (assuming they are lost) will result in Essex class CV's showing up in their place, allowing the Allies to start their drive to Japan in '43 instead of '44.

Not too bad in the overall scheme of things. You always have to look at the bigger picture. The USA will be getting their butt kicked through most of '42. Nothing will change that. A couple of CV's will not alter that fact. Attempting to bring an end to Japan prior to the F6F and F1U enter service is dreaming. You are looking at August of '43 before you'll be unstoppable as the Allies. USA CV effects prior to that time are a craps shoot. You will have your replacement CV's back before you have the aircraft to put on them so an early loss doesn't really spell the doom and gloom of the Allies.

I like the list and don't think this is some Japanese fanboy list.

So, that 'list" is pretty much a list of different ways the US fleet gets devastated.

Remember Japan attacked first and this provides some nice variation. These may in fact provide some nasty surprises for the Japanese player. If Japan loses a carrier or has a couple damaged, it will put a big dent in Japanese expansion plans, on the other hand if Japan can damage or sink the US carriers it will give Japan some extra time.

Looking forward to Mogami's AARs on these new options.[:)]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Btw: Just for your info, I have managed to get Dive bombers increased in effect (a major boon to the Allies with their useless TBD

When and how have dive bombers been increased? I missed that one. [&:]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
You also miss the bigger picture, that these sunk CV's (assuming they are lost) will result in Essex class CV's showing up in their place,

Yeah, we all still hate the free Essex CVs but we seem to be stuck with them. [:@]

When and how have dive bombers been increased?

There are a million odd things that get changed and tuned between each version, you guys generally only see the new features popping up here. I was just highlighting to mdiehl just how silly his "I'm an Axis Fanboy" statement was.

DB accuracy was on the low side. It has been increased. This benefits the Allies with their bigger bombs far more then Japan with their little "ping pong" bombs.

But hey, never forget, I'm an Axis Fanboy [:D]

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
You also miss the bigger picture, that these sunk CV's (assuming they are lost) will result in Essex class CV's showing up in their place,

Yeah, we all still hate the free Essex CVs but we seem to be stuck with them. [:@]

I think that changed that one the allies don't actually get an additional Essex, the next boat out just recieves the sunk ones name (as happened historically)

Yeah, we all still hate the free Essex CVs but we seem to be stuck with them.

There is some varience thrown into that rule. They still come, but the exact date is now a fairly substantial range.

Having done some research on the production of the Essex class, it seems they could crank them out in as little as 1.25 years. It is not unreasonable to see them cranking out some extras based on those rates. Looking at all the shipyards involved, they could have doubled the number produced had they wanted to at the expense of some CA class ships. Stopping the Fast BB production probably would have let them triple the production numbers.

Should you feel so inclined, it is a simple matter to just leave them sitting at San Francisco when they show up for the duration of the game. (or if you really want to, move the hull number that was renamed there and play with the renamed one). A very simple solution really.

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I'll test them but I'll never use them. As Japan I will not risk a 33 percent chance my CV are exposed to attack with their airgroups set to port and airfield attack. As USN I will not risk a 33 percent chance that my CV are in port.

Okay, but let's say you are Japan playing against this option. To avoid a disaster in the event Option Two is in effect (U.S. CV TF lurking near PH), how do you set up your attack? I gather from the way you set priorities for a/c that you might have two three-carrier taskforces: one set to naval attack/base attack and one set to naval attack/port attack. Does this allow the Japanese to strike the U.S. carriers if present and, if not, a fairly equal spread between the airfields and the ships in Pearl? If not, why not?

ORIGINAL: byron13

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I'll test them but I'll never use them. As Japan I will not risk a 33 percent chance my CV are exposed to attack with their airgroups set to port and airfield attack. As USN I will not risk a 33 percent chance that my CV are in port.

Okay, but let's say you are Japan playing against this option. To avoid a disaster in the event Option Two is in effect (U.S. CV TF lurking near PH), how do you set up your attack? I gather from the way you set priorities for a/c that you might have two three-carrier taskforces: one set to naval attack/base attack and one set to naval attack/port attack. Does this allow the Japanese to strike the U.S. carriers if present and, if not, a fairly equal spread between the airfields and the ships in Pearl? If not, why not?

Personally I think Option 2 deployment is only plausible if the USN has been alerted of KB approaching and conversely KB is unaware of this. In this case KB must attack PH in the AM phase atleast, but possibley should be free to switch to naval attack in the PM phase.

If I understand the game mechanics, you wouldn't be allowed to switch to naval attack until the next day - by which time the Japanese only have spotter a/c from cruisers with which to conduct such an attack.

Personally I think Option 2 deployment is only plausible if the USN has been alerted of KB approaching and conversely KB is unaware of this. In this case KB must attack PH in the AM phase atleast, but possibley should be free to switch to naval attack in the PM phase.

Even if they switch in the afternoon, it will not matter, the damage will already be done by the strike from the USN carriers in the morning phase coupled with the large number of aircraft that are damaged on the PH attack being unready to take on the USN CV's. This is literally Japan's worst nightmare!

This amounts to a Midway on Dec 7th, 1941! This is almost a game ender right there and then. Japan ships have a really long way to run back to a friendly port while the USN will likely be hot in pursuit.

Hi, When you select this option there are no player turns on turn 1. It goes direct to combat phase. You find out what option was used on turn 2.
In PBEM game the steps would be
Japanese player selects scenario and options. Enters password and sends file to Allied player who enters password and returns file. Japanese player runs turn and on turn 2 both players input orders.

I look at it this way. If you select this option you have a 33 percent chance of getting the enemy carriers. You have a 33 percent chance as Japan of being hurt. You have a 33 percent chance as USN of being hurt.

If I thought I had a 33 percent chance of losing a battle I would cancel the operation.

I prefer the non historic turn 1 (where both players are allowed orders) with house rules.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Personally I think Option 2 deployment is only plausible if the USN has been alerted of KB approaching and conversely KB is unaware of this. In this case KB must attack PH in the AM phase atleast, but possibley should be free to switch to naval attack in the PM phase.

Even if they switch in the afternoon, it will not matter, the damage will already be done by the strike from the USN carriers in the morning phase coupled with the large number of aircraft that are damaged on the PH attack being unready to take on the USN CV's. This is literally Japan's worst nightmare!

This amounts to a Midway on Dec 7th, 1941! This is almost a game ender right there and then. Japan ships have a really long way to run back to a friendly port while the USN will likely be hot in pursuit.

I agree that option 2 is a definite allied avantage, especially IF there is NO suprise, but the discription states that only some units are alerted. Really for the USN to be deployed this way, you would have to assume that all units would be on full alert.

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, When you select this option there are no player turns on turn 1. It goes direct to combat phase. You find out what option was used on turn 2.
In PBEM game the steps would be
Japanese player selects scenario and options. Enters password and sends file to Allied player who enters password and returns file. Japanese player runs turn and on turn 2 both players input orders.

I look at it this way. If you select this option you have a 33 percent chance of getting the enemy carriers. You have a 33 percent chance as Japan of being hurt. You have a 33 percent chance as USN of being hurt.

If I thought I had a 33 percent chance of losing a battle I would cancel the operation.

I prefer the non historic turn 1 (where both players are allowed orders) with house rules.

Having read through all the various "explanations", I'm with you. I'd much rather work
out something that both players were comfortable with than engage in a major "crap-
shoot" with the opening turn (and probably have to listen to one side or the other moan
about the outcome for the next 1000 turns)

I don't know ... house rules tend to be more debated then rolls of the die.

Too each their own I guess, but when you start the game and click the toggles then get the results back it falls in the "too bad, so sad" catagory. The game is the game and you are stuck with how the dice landed.

I understand completely where Mogami is coming from because the potential damage done to Japan on a failed roll is pretty much unrecoverable, but then again, that very well could have happened. Remember, they expected the CV's to be at PH. It was a plan with a high risk balanced against a high reward. Should it backfire, so be it. I have no problem with it having the "backfire" ability. It will knock perhaps as much as 1,000 turns off the game, but there is still 600+ turns to have fun ripping your hair out.

ORIGINAL: Mogami
If I thought I had a 33 percent chance of losing a battle I would cancel the operation.

I prefer the non historic turn 1 (where both players are allowed orders) with house rules.

You sound like Bo Schembechler commenting about the forward pass: "Only three things can happen, and two of them are bad."

I prefer the ahistorical turn 1, as well, after I get done practicing up against the AI (which probably will need all the chances at random advantage it can get).

Hello...

As the option only applies when using the historical first turn option, you will not be allowed to change group assignments. However, Admiral Nagumo does have the option of changing the assignments given in the scenario. If he does so or no will depend on a lot of tactical factors, task force detection levels and skill tests at runtime. He may divert one or more carrier strikes from Pearl to the American carriers and he may have to wait until the second strike.

Risky Business, War Is...

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: byron13
Okay, but let's say you are Japan playing against this option. To avoid a disaster in the event Option Two is in effect (U.S. CV TF lurking near PH), how do you set up your attack? I gather from the way you set priorities for a/c that you might have two three-carrier taskforces: one set to naval attack/base attack and one set to naval attack/port attack. Does this allow the Japanese to strike the U.S. carriers if present and, if not, a fairly equal spread between the airfields and the ships in Pearl? If not, why not?

Thanks Mike. From an Allied POV that puts the nail in the coffin on using any of these options in PBEM IMO.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Personally I think Option 2 deployment is only plausible if the USN has been alerted of KB approaching and conversely KB is unaware of this. In this case KB must attack PH in the AM phase atleast, but possibley should be free to switch to naval attack in the PM phase.

Even if they switch in the afternoon, it will not matter, the damage will already be done by the strike from the USN carriers in the morning phase coupled with the large number of aircraft that are damaged on the PH attack being unready to take on the USN CV's. This is literally Japan's worst nightmare!

This amounts to a Midway on Dec 7th, 1941! This is almost a game ender right there and then. Japan ships have a really long way to run back to a friendly port while the USN will likely be hot in pursuit.

I'll try out this scenario just to see if the USN get in any hits at all. It will be a big change of pace from my experience with UV and Pacwar if unblooded USN planes can hit an island, much less a carrier TF. (Memories of countless battles where 300+ Japanese planes come in against 12 Wildcats come to mind immediately...) But that's what will be fun about WitP - trying out things and complaining about Gary's choices (after all, there are plenty of us who have been doing that for years and years...) [;)]

Dave Baranyi