Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

ORIGINAL: MikeKraemer


The challenge is The respawned CV's were CV's that were built CV's 10,12,16 and 18 were built and whether or not you use the original names or the respawned names is irrelevent.

What challenge? NO one is suggesting that you substract any of the historical 13 Essex CV hulls from the oob. What is being objected to is the ADDITION of up to 6 UNHISTORIC hulls being "INSERTED" 550 days after a Pre-war CV loss.

Here is a possible example of the 13.

1) CV9 Essex
2) CV10 Bon Homme Richard (YORKTOWN)
3) CV11 Intrepid
4) CV12 Kearsarge (HORNET)
5) CV13 Franklin
6) CV14 Ticonderoga
7) CV15 Randolph
8) CV16 Cabot (LEXINGTON)
9) CV17 Bunker Hill
10) CV18 Oriskany (WASP)
11) CV19 Hancock
12) CV20 Bennington
13) CV21 Boxer


If you like add two more at the end of the que for the a-hisitorical loss of the Enterprise and Saratoga.

14) CV22 Reprisal (ENTERPRISE)
15) CV23 Valley Forge (SARATOGA)

Of course if the game last beyond Aug45 then you can add in succession.

Antietam
Lake Champlain
Crown Point
Wright
ect....

Spot on in my opinion.[;)]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

ORIGINAL: MikeKraemer

Here is a possible example of the 13.

1) CV9 Essex
2) CV10 Bon Homme Richard (YORKTOWN)
3) CV11 Intrepid
4) CV12 Kearsarge (HORNET)
5) CV13 Franklin
6) CV14 Ticonderoga
7) CV15 Randolph
8) CV16 Cabot (LEXINGTON)
9) CV17 Bunker Hill
10) CV18 Oriskany (WASP)
11) CV19 Hancock
12) CV20 Bennington
13) CV21 Boxer


If you like add two more at the end of the que for the a-hisitorical loss of the Enterprise and Saratoga.

14) CV22 Reprisal (ENTERPRISE)
15) CV23 Valley Forge (SARATOGA)

Of course if the game last beyond Aug45 then you can add in succession.

Antietam
Lake Champlain
Crown Point
Wright
ect....

Spot on in my opinion.[;)]

Quick Question: With CV16 retaining the name Cabot, what is the name of CVL-28 in WITP??

Cabot is an Independence class CVL

Lexington, Saratoga, Yorktown, Enterprise, Hornet, Wasp, Essex, Bunker Hill, Intrepid, Franklin, Hancock, Randolph, Ticonderoga, Bennington, Boxer, Bon Homme Richard, Antietam, Shangri-La, Lake Champlain are the CV's in the game.

Yeep, I've gotten confused!

[&:]

Great arguements though. Very well stated.

I think for all intents and purposes the arguement is that both the US and Japan were operating at pretty much capacity, so you cannot just squeeze in up to six more major warships into the production program. If they could have, they would have.

The US production was still increasing at wars end (at least it was for planes and tanks), but that didn't mean they could have increased it earlier but just didn't feel like it. As was stated, it takes time to make the production facilities, which goes all the way back to digging another hole in the ground and pulling more iron/ tin/ coal/ etc. out. And of course, in addition to the annoying reality that things take time to do, is the simple fact that at some point all your people are busy, so who is going to be building these new things?

In any case, Japan, in any long war with the US was going to be buried, whether in 1922 or 1941, as long as US morale held out.

I still argue that at no point did Japan ever think that they could 'beat' the US (not unless they were completely deranged), but rather was hoping if they could give the US an adequately bloody nose, they would stick to their isolationist policies, withdraw from the Pacific, and leave Japan to do whatever it wanted with South-East Asia and Australia.

It might have worked too, if the Japs had been a little luckier in the Coral Sea and (in particular) at Midway. Heck, if Pearl Harbor had been completely according to plan (getting a couple carriers in dock), might have almost been enough to end it on the spot.

But an adequate punch was never delivered. Coupled with raising the ire of the US with Pearl Harbour becoming a cowardly sneak attack while at peace, instead of a surprise attack during a war, the US had no intention of backing down.

And the rest is, as they say, history.

OK guys - I am now officially confused.

Does WITP ignore CV-10, CV-12, CV-16 and CV-18 and count on re-creating lost pre-war carriers (PacWar Style)

or

Does it include CV-10,12,16,18 and not re-spawn lost pre-wars (this would get my vote).

or

Does it both include CV-10,12,16,18 and re-create lost pre-wars.

All the CV's I listed are in the game.

Another point about Japanese industrial mobilization. On 7 Dec 41, the IJN had 18 dreadnought, pre-dreadnought, armored cruisers and protected cruisers in service as hulks, training ships, or in the case of armored cruisers, 5 still on active service, all commissioned before 1905. The aggregate tonnage of steel incorporated in these ships was close to 200,000 tons. It would have seemd a better utilization of these ships to have sent them to the scrap pile for reprocessing.

I have to disagree. As Willmott has pointed out, the IJN could have sunk the ENTIRE pre-1941 USN and by mid-1944 been completely outnumbered. As long as US morale held up, and PH and racism made sure of that, the US would execute Plan Orange to its successful conclusion, the isolation and siege of Japan.

Basically, after looking at the ship reinforcement list in it's present state, all the new construction which was named after lost warships have been omitted. They no longer are considered to have existed unless their namesakes are sunk. Eg. There is no Essex class Yorktown unless CV5 gets sunk. There is no Baltimore class Canberra, Cleveland class Houston, Sumner class Laffey, Balao class Shark, etc. I'm not sure at this point if this respawning applies to all ship types or just CVs, CAs what have you. So, as far as I can see, if the namesake is not sunk, you lose the historical hull which was on the stocks as named originally. This should answer any questions and clear up any confusion. As to whether or not this remains as is, I can't answer that.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

OK guys - I am now officially confused.

Does WITP ignore CV-10, CV-12, CV-16 and CV-18 and count on re-creating lost pre-war carriers (PacWar Style)

or

Does it include CV-10,12,16,18 and not re-spawn lost pre-wars (this would get my vote).

or

Does it both include CV-10,12,16,18 and re-create lost pre-wars.

That would be the latter. The game includes CV10,12,16,18 and re-spawns up to 6 additional CVs within 550 days for each pre-war CV sunk. And there lies the crux of the problem as LTCMTS so clearly points out.

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Basically, after looking at the ship reinforcement list in it's present state, all the new construction which was named after lost warships have been omitted. They no longer are considered to have existed unless their namesakes are sunk. Eg. There is no Essex class Yorktown unless CV5 gets sunk. There is no Baltimore class Canberra, Cleveland class Houston, Sumner class Laffey, Balao class Shark, etc. I'm not sure at this point if this respawning applies to all ship types or just CVs, CAs what have you. So, as far as I can see, if the namesake is not sunk, you lose the historical hull which was on the stocks as named originally. This should answer any questions and clear up any confusion. As to whether or not this remains as is, I can't answer that.

Ron, I believe you are mistaken. Its 13 hulls plus 6. Its true that none of the 6 are added unless there namesakes are sunk. BUT if they are sunk they are ADDED to the 13 CVs. They DO NOT replace any of the 13. If they did there wouldnt be a problem.

Just to clarify, can you tell us what Essex CVs are due to arrive in 1943 in the game?

ORIGINAL: LTCMTS
It would have seemd a better utilization of these ships to have sent them to the scrap pile for reprocessing.

A comment that perhaps is applicable to the entire IJN, considering the war's outcome.

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Basically, after looking at the ship reinforcement list in it's present state, all the new construction which was named after lost warships have been omitted. They no longer are considered to have existed unless their namesakes are sunk. Eg. There is no Essex class Yorktown unless CV5 gets sunk. There is no Baltimore class Canberra, Cleveland class Houston, Sumner class Laffey, Balao class Shark, etc. I'm not sure at this point if this respawning applies to all ship types or just CVs, CAs what have you. So, as far as I can see, if the namesake is not sunk, you lose the historical hull which was on the stocks as named originally. This should answer any questions and clear up any confusion. As to whether or not this remains as is, I can't answer that.

Ron, I believe you are mistaken. Its 13 hulls plus 6. Its true that none of the 6 are added unless there namesakes are sunk. BUT if they are sunk they are ADDED to the 13 CVs. They DO NOT replace any of the 13. If they did there wouldnt be a problem.

Just to clarify, can you tell us what Essex CVs are due to arrive in 1943 in the game?

I presume it's OK for us to say on something of this nature. Essex class totals for entire game (scenario 15, the main campaign) with prewar carriers afloat.
Essex
Bunker Hill
Intrepid
Franklin
Hancock
Randolph
Ticonderoga
Bennington
Boxer
Bon Homme Richard
Shangri La
Antietam
Lake Champlain

No CV 10,12, 16, 18. There were 17 Essexes commissioned and active by Japan's surrender. 13 + 4. I've asked about a clarification in the snake pit. That should clear this up. I was away from testing for some months for health reasons so I missed the discussion about this, and can't find them yet. Don't panic![:D]

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

OK guys - I am now officially confused.

Does WITP ignore CV-10, CV-12, CV-16 and CV-18 and count on re-creating lost pre-war carriers (PacWar Style)

or

Does it include CV-10,12,16,18 and not re-spawn lost pre-wars (this would get my vote).

or

Does it both include CV-10,12,16,18 and re-create lost pre-wars.

That would be the latter. The game includes CV10,12,16,18 and re-spawns up to 6 additional CVs within 550 days for each pre-war CV sunk. And there lies the crux of the problem as LTCMTS so clearly points out.

Oh (Disappointed sigh) - but thanks for the info.

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

(snipped)

I presume it's OK for us to say on something of this nature. Essex class totals for entire game (scenario 15, the main campaign) with prewar carriers afloat.
Essex
Bunker Hill
Intrepid
Franklin
Hancock
Randolph
Ticonderoga
Bennington
Boxer
Bon Homme Richard
Shangri La
Antietam
Lake Champlain

No CV 10,12, 16, 18. There were 17 Essexes commissioned and active by Japan's surrender. 13 + 4. I've asked about a clarification in the snake pit. That should clear this up. I was away from testing for some months for health reasons so I missed the discussion about this, and can't find them yet. Don't panic![:D]

OK - I can live with that. It's the old PacWar style and I never did like it but at least I got used to it. I personally think it would be better to include the "renamed" ships under their original names and not re-incarnate the sunk. But I guess that would create another discussion about the "new" ship names showing up.

I had always thought that it was done this way in PacWar due to core limitations on DOS and not enough ship-slots. Unless it's related to game balance, I have to wonder why it is still being used.

Don

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

OK guys - I am now officially confused.

Does WITP ignore CV-10, CV-12, CV-16 and CV-18 and count on re-creating lost pre-war carriers (PacWar Style)

or

Does it include CV-10,12,16,18 and not re-spawn lost pre-wars (this would get my vote).

or

Does it both include CV-10,12,16,18 and re-create lost pre-wars.

That would be the latter. The game includes CV10,12,16,18 and re-spawns up to 6 additional CVs within 550 days for each pre-war CV sunk. And there lies the crux of the problem as LTCMTS so clearly points out.

Oh (Disappointed sigh) - but thanks for the info.

Don/TIMJOT:

The game does NOT include:
CV10 Bon Homme Richard (renamed Yorktown)
CV12 Kearsarge (renamed Hornet)
CV16 Cabot (renamed Lexington)
CV18 Oriskany (renamed Wasp)

As explained earlier, USN gets 17 CV slots to work with. If you lose all 6 Pre-war CVs, then you're rewarded with them back as Essex Class CV's. If you manage not to lose any, you don't get the 4 "renamed" hulls that occurred historically.

In PacWar, I personally drove Wasp (CV7) into harms' way ASAP to get her back ASAP as Essex class.

[/quote]

Don/TIMJOT:

In PacWar, I personally drove Wasp (CV7) into harms' way ASAP to get her back ASAP as Essex class.
[/quote]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


Don/TIMJOT:

In PacWar, I personally drove Wasp (CV7) into harms' way ASAP to get her back ASAP as Essex class.

Colour me baaaad

I then went in, and renamed the next Essex that was due out, exchanging Wasp with some other ship name I hated, I think it was Boxer

No CV 10,12, 16, 18. There were 17 Essexes commissioned and active by Japan's surrender.

I thought that people were getting worked up without researching. I knew that there were more than 13 Essex class carriers in use during the war, but cannot locate my ww2 Jane's at the moment (I think that I loaned it to a buddy I was/am trying to get into UV).

So in reality it seems that a lucky US player could end up short four carriers (historical hulls created and used in the war - like anyone will get that lucky!) or with two extra. Wierd...

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan


Don/TIMJOT:

The game does NOT include:
CV10 Bon Homme Richard (renamed Yorktown)
CV12 Kearsarge (renamed Hornet)
CV16 Cabot (renamed Lexington)
CV18 Oriskany (renamed Wasp)

As explained earlier, USN gets 17 CV slots to work with. If you lose all 6 Pre-war CVs, then you're rewarded with them back as Essex Class CV's. If you manage not to lose any, you don't get the 4 "renamed" hulls that occurred historically.

Ok Admiral Dadman now I am completely confused. Is this a newly implemented system? Because it is not what was described two months ago.

So If I understand you correctly. You are now saying that barring any pre-war CVs being sunk, the only Essex CVs that come on line in 43 are CV-9 Essex (5/43), CV-17 Bunkerhill (9/43), and CV-11 Intrepid (12/43)?

That in 44 the only Essex that come on line are CV-13 Franklin (6/44), CV-14 Ticonderoga (8/44), CV-15 Randolph (12/44), CV-19 Hancock (7/44), CV-20 Benningon (12/44)?

If so.... then I am sorry to have to say that it makes even less sense. The hulls that became CV-10 (7/43), CV-12 (12/43), CV-16 (8/43), CV-18 (2/44) should NOT dissapear simply becuase there are no losses. Regardless of losses there should be 5 Essex CVs in 43 and 7 in 44.

Please if you dont mind clarify, what has now at least for me become very confusing.