Matrix Games Forums

We'll see.

Has anybody actually looked into getting realistic color coding for the "Tickle Me Elmo" cotton candy PX wagon near the remfmobiles for the OOB's?????LMAO!!!!!!!!
I see this announcement as nothing but great news..
Please get it out and free Matrix for PROFIT-EARNING considerations..I do not want you folks having to close your doors and go by the wayside (leaving the wargaming community to the fools and idiots on Wall Street,(or "Kindergarten College Kampfers" for that matter..)[;)]
On with CL,etc.................[:'(]

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

I probably shouldn't be even touching this issue, I might get sucked into something I don't wish to invite.

But why should rarity not be ruthlessly inforced?

In ASL, a tank bought in 1939, will not be the same cost necessarily when bought in 41, or 45 assuming it was even in use in all those years. Because they were NOT worth the same in differing years in some cases.

Of course, PBEM likely only demonstrates the same weakness you find in ASL's DYO system. A scenario not pre play tested has no reason to be expected to be play balanced period end of story.

I categorically refuse to play ASL via DYO (design your own) simply for that reason. Total waste of time.

To my knowledge, PBEM Steel Panthers is essentially playing Battle mode correct?
No better than an ASL DYO game though. Unplay tested, hence likely grossly unbalanced hence likely a waste of time.

Which probably explains why no one has been playing me online eh.

I would likely only want to play a human opponent a game of Steel Panthers if they were to select a scenario that was actually conciously and deliberately designed to be sensible credible, historical, and tested.

I actually would rather the prices be ruthlessly historical, ruthlessly rarity relevant, and if this kicks PBEM in the crotch, well I guess that would be what I would do to it.

Considering all the effort going into the game to make it "accurate" ie "realistic", making concessions to purchasing just so 4 tanks on my side equals 4 tanks on your side, seems to make a lot of the other work a pointless waste ot time.
Might as well just make all the tanks the same tank. Small ones, medium ones and big ones.

Les, I think you'd make a good Communist since you have clear ideas about what is best for everyone's gaming enjoyment. [;)]

As for make all the tanks the same; that is clearly NOT what performance pricing is about. You are implying that all tanks should be 50, 100 or 200 pts. PBEM players don't care how many different tanks there are (the more the better actually) as long as 1000 pts against 1000 pts is an equal battle.

It really isn't a difficult concept to grasp and anyone that tries to impose their desire for historical accuracy in force selection over game play is just not "getting it."

rb

Implying I would be an ideal commie is kinda funny all things considered (and my feelings where that moronic form of goivernment is concerned hehe).

But hmm 1000 points being equal to 1000 points, interesting notion. Should you not just stick with checkers then?

I daresay you would likely end up a perpetually grumpy ASL player if you have never played the game.

"Hey how come he got three tiger tanks and all I got with the %#&%$# pair of Shermans?"

"Well, that's because that was what your side got".

You must really hate playing Fall of France games, those damnable Germans have an unfair advantage. And Look at this Barbarossa game, again the Germans start off with more than the Russians. And what's with the Midway battle game, the Yanks get a few lousy carriers, yet you almost paint the Japanese with naval vessels.

You call that fair?

No RB I guess I don't get your ideas.

I may just have to download 8.2 afterall

Better go dig out all those MC cds....

great news and thanks Matrix!

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Implying I would be an ideal commie is kinda funny all things considered (and my feelings where that moronic form of goivernment is concerned hehe).

But hmm 1000 points being equal to 1000 points, interesting notion. Should you not just stick with checkers then?

I daresay you would likely end up a perpetually grumpy ASL player if you have never played the game.

"Hey how come he got three tiger tanks and all I got with the %#&%$# pair of Shermans?"

"Well, that's because that was what your side got".

You must really hate playing Fall of France games, those damnable Germans have an unfair advantage. And Look at this Barbarossa game, again the Germans start off with more than the Russians. And what's with the Midway battle game, the Yanks get a few lousy carriers, yet you almost paint the Japanese with naval vessels.

You call that fair?

No RB I guess I don't get your ideas.

A performance based point system can be all things to all people. A rarity based system only satisfies historical accuracy fanatics.

If you want Midway or Barbarosa, you just set it up according to the historical situation as can easily be determined by referencing the right books. The cost of a unit has no bearing on the scenario creation.

Two PBEM players who want a fairly matched battle (and not caring about recreating a historical scenario) cannot do so with a rarity inspired point system.

When I want to recreate history I get a scenario. When I want to match my wits against someone else there has to be some way of knowing that we each have the same number of checkers. Don't we? [&:] A performance based point system does this. A rarity based system doesn't.

The rarity based people are imposing their will on everyone, even if they don't want the imposition. Performance based people see it as everyone can get what they want out of the game. I don't see why this is a tough concept for people to understand.

And, I'm annoyed that the Matrix folks alway just ignore this kind of inquiry. If performance based costs were good enough for SP1 to SPWAW v7.1, why change it now?

rb

I may be waaaay off base here, because I haven't delved into editing or swapping oob's etc at all playing the game, I have only played the stock game. But, can't a player right now (and apparently easier in the future with this modification) edit the oob to have the pricing format set like RB desires?
This wouldn't seem to be (here's where I go out on a limb speculating about things I don't know about) that hard to do, albeit a little tedious, but done once and posted, would be avalaible to all interested parties for PBEM play if desired? This may be a huge job, I don't know, to change all unit prices, but again, done once it would be available to all. There seems to be enough interest to entice a few volunteers to try. MG will post the stock version, and then modders out there can tweak to hearts content and then use new utility to swap them in easily.
Am I ignorant of issues that would prevent this?
Is it sour grapes to say MG didn't use the pricing system I prefer, if it is possible for me to change it?

Please don't interpret this as a personal attack on anyone, because it is not meant that way at all, and I may be just showing everyone how little I know about modding the oob. I clearly see RB and others pricing prefence having validity for evenly matched PBEM games. Is it that big a job to change it?

I'm interested in hearing your opinions, thanks

Tim

Panzer Leo is one of the best IMHO. Glad to see him on the team.

It was Leo after all that got me interested in the internal workings of SPWaW. He is an inspiration to me and Im sure other's that have had a hand in this game.

Leo, did you manage to get the OOB team to get rid of that stupid SU-37 assault gun and replace it with your historicly correct SU-45?(Na-Gum?)

Congratulations Leo...

now get to work ya slacker [:'(]

Does this mean 8.2 will be released whne Leo H2h is finished? Or will it be out before and then download LEo h2h?
Also is modswapper already fin or is it still in development?

Sounds Good!

Looking forward to it's release.

JD

ORIGINAL: Orzel Bialy

ORIGINAL: rbrunsman

Not to rain on the parade, but...

Leo is another believer in the thought that "unit costs should include rarity factors." That is a bad thing for PBEM gamers.

Unless someone at Matrix would care to allay my concerns about this. If it is only a minor change here and there to the point costs, I have no problem, but if a 3000 pt Allied force is not combat equal to a 3000 pt Axis force, then PBEM is fubar.

rb

RB,

I think that it's a good bet that both regular 8.2 and H2H 8.2 will be basically the same formats as far as pricing and OoB composition...the only difference being that one version is based to take on AI play and the other Pbem.

It's a good question though.

Sorry Orzel, but I disagree.
If both versions will be basically the same, which is the point of having two versions?

I like the concept that rare equipment cost more than mass produced equipment because it lures the players to buy more realistic OOB.
And is not true that H2H is "unbalanced" because of that. If you want a good and strong OOB all you have to do is buying the most comon units in your arsenal (and that works for the US, the USSR and for Germany too... If you play the Germans all you have to do is buying Stugs and PzIV, not Tigers and Ferdinands).

I have played docens of PBEM in the Eastern Front Theater using H2H both with the Soviets and the Germans and the game is balanced. I thik that is more balanced than the regular WaW (7.1 I mean ... that was the last official Matrix version I played and then moved to H2H)

If the new H2H version takes the same price system than the regular WaW version I'm afraid that I'll definitively abandon the Matrix SP and move to the SPCAMO version.

Are we in time to make some sugestions to Leo for the new H2H? Where should I make my sugestion?

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

ORIGINAL: Alby

So, does this mean no more 2 installs of spwaw??
one for H2H and One for Reg spwaw??
both these games can now be played from one install??
This is the best thing thats ever happened!!!!
Thanks guys!!!

Basically yes. We introduced ModSwap (as we call it) with Squad Assault. The idea behind it is that you are able to swap "mods" for the game with a simple mouseclick (and some seconds patience as the tool swaps files). Mods are packed in ModSwap specific files to avoid confusion. We will give out a manual with it so every gamer will be able to write / generate his own modswap files.

Comes pretty usefull for swapping OOBs etc.

now that's good news [:D] ... and I had give up the hope of reading any good news from Matrix... I guess I will have to reconsider it!

ORIGINAL: Gallo Rojo

Sorry Orzel, but I disagree.
If both versions will be basically the same, which is the point of having two versions?

I like the concept that rare equipment cost more than mass produced equipment because it lures the players to buy more realistic OOB.
And is not true that H2H is "unbalanced" because of that. If you want a good and strong OOB all you have to do is buying the most comon units in your arsenal (and that works for the US, the USSR and for Germany too... If you play the Germans all you have to do is buying Stugs and PzIV, not Tigers and Ferdinands).

I have played docens of PBEM in the Eastern Front Theater using H2H both with the Soviets and the Germans and the game is balanced. I thik that is more balanced than the regular WaW (7.1 I mean ... that was the last official Matrix version I played and then moved to H2H)

If the new H2H version takes the same price system than the regular WaW version I'm afraid that I'll definitively abandon the Matrix SP and move to the SPCAMO version.

Ummm Gallo...you can disagree with me all you want but not for the reasons you stated...chiefly because that's not what I said. [:'(]

All I said was that it may be a good bet that the two OoB's will end up being very similiar...and that one version may have a mech.exe that is fine tuned for play against the AI while he other is left as is for Pbem. Again that's just a thought that I shared. I'm waiting to see the definite answer to RB's question too so that I'll know for sure.

As for anything being unbalanced...that wasn't me either. I actually don't mind the price point concept in H2H...just have been of the opinion that they needed just a slight bit of tweaking.

PS...please don't ask for anything else to be added or changed at this point...just let them load the files and get it over with! [:-]

Never mind...thought you were talking about this version. Feel free to send Leo any ideas you have. [:'(]

Excellent. I look forward to trying out some mods on the new 8.20

ORIGINAL: Gallo Rojo

I like the concept that rare equipment cost more than mass produced equipment because it lures the players to buy more realistic OOB.

Why do people keep getting bent out of shape about me buying whatever equipment I want? As long as my opponent has the same option I do, what business is it of anyone if two people want to screw around with historically accurate equipment in an ahistoric manner. I just don't get this holier-than-thow attitude. It is a game people! Why are you trying to impose your historic rigidity on others? You can have your cake and eat it too if price is based on performance. Think of all the fun equipment that is rare that will be relegated to 'never-used' if you took this thinking as far as you guys want to. Jeesh![:-]

Great news David!! A long awaited utility for the game and a welcome addition to your designing team.

tmac:

I may be waaaay off base here, because I haven't delved into editing or swapping oob's etc at all playing the game, I have only played the stock game. But, can't a player right now (and apparently easier in the future with this modification) edit the oob to have the pricing format set like RB desires?
This wouldn't seem to be (here's where I go out on a limb speculating about things I don't know about) that hard to do, albeit a little tedious, but done once and posted, would be avalaible to all interested parties for PBEM play if desired? This may be a huge job, I don't know, to change all unit prices, but again, done once it would be available to all. There seems to be enough interest to entice a few volunteers to try. MG will post the stock version, and then modders out there can tweak to hearts content and then use new utility to swap them in easily.
Am I ignorant of issues that would prevent this?
Is it sour grapes to say MG didn't use the pricing system I prefer, if it is possible for me to change it?

Please don't interpret this as a personal attack on anyone, because it is not meant that way at all, and I may be just showing everyone how little I know about modding the oob. I clearly see RB and others pricing prefence having validity for evenly matched PBEM games. Is it that big a job to change it?

I'm interested in hearing your opinions, thanks

Tim

Trust me, since you've not delved into editing or swapping the oob's, this is a very welcome addition. Editing the oob's involves a lot of research and work and some little mistakes can cause a great deal of heartache. The ability to swap out oob's easily is something that I'm sure the oob editors have been waiting for for a long time. The idea of swapping out mods also allows a great deal of flexibility in order to experiment with different sets - a very good thing.

rdrunsman:

A performance based point system can be all things to all people. A rarity based system only satisfies historical accuracy fanatics.

If you want Midway or Barbarosa, you just set it up according to the historical situation as can easily be determined by referencing the right books. The cost of a unit has no bearing on the scenario creation.

Two PBEM players who want a fairly matched battle (and not caring about recreating a historical scenario) cannot do so with a rarity inspired point system.

When I want to recreate history I get a scenario. When I want to match my wits against someone else there has to be some way of knowing that we each have the same number of checkers. Don't we? A performance based point system does this. A rarity based system doesn't.

The rarity based people are imposing their will on everyone, even if they don't want the imposition. Performance based people see it as everyone can get what they want out of the game. I don't see why this is a tough concept for people to understand.

And, I'm annoyed that the Matrix folks alway just ignore this kind of inquiry. If performance based costs were good enough for SP1 to SPWAW v7.1, why change it now?

rb

The big problem with the performance based pricing system is that it doesn't satisfy the rarity based pricing nuts like myself and Les. Fortunately with this new modswapper we can develop our pricing systems and play the way we feel it should be played.[:)]

The idea behind using rarity priced units is in order to simulate historical forces. Les is incorrect in one respect, and that is that the Germans started out with more than the Russians or the French. The historical record shows that the Germans were outmatched by both the French and the Russians in both number and quality of tanks. The main advantage that the Germans had over the their enemies was in their superior use of tactics and the performance of their troops.

Now if you are interested in matching wits against an opponent in a game and you want to spend 1000 pts each on your units with a pricing system based on the performance of the units that is fine - it allows fair and balanced game. If you are interested in matching wits with an opponent based on a game which has a pricing system based on historical rarity then play as the Poles opposing the Germans in 1939 with infantry against tanks and defeat your enemy - this allows the satisfaction of knowing that even with the odds stacked against you you can win, even fighting your opponent to a draw gives you the feeling that you are better than your opponent. Balanced forces mean nothing unless you and your opponent are evenly matched in tactical skill as well and in this kind of match it is no better than a game of chess or checkers.

I believe that this is what Les feels as well - victory for people who like historical match-ups means doing better than the historical results. There is no feeling better for us than feeling that we can do better than the great generals of history, and a worthy opponent is one who feels the same way. Rarity pricing systems allow you to simulate hypothetical matchups based on the historical forces available to both sides - this is something that performance based pricing does not do.