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Ok, now all we is aircraft production for dummies![:)]

Production thoughts:

Transport Aircraft:
In general, transport aircraft should have the lowest attrition level of any aircraft in the game. They don't get shot down very often, and you should be able to minimize operational losses. In other words, you shouldn't need to have a very big pool of these guys sitting around. You should produce what you need, with a reasonable cushion, then convert production to other types. If it was possible to convert all transport production to the MC-21, L3Y, and H6K2-L, I would. Unfortunately, the only upgrade path available is one that makes little sense, so your job here is to get a big enough pool and use the factories for something else. Specifics follow:

1. Change production of L1N1 Thora
The TBO for the L1N1 is 84 a/c, yet you already have 34 in squadrons and 111 in the pool. Building 5 more a month seems like a pittance, but that is 10 Nakajima engines and 270 HI saved.

2. Convert Ki-54 production to researching another type after producing approximately 60 of them.
You need 48 a/c to upgrade one squadron of Ki-59's and bring your replacement group into play. Adding 12 more gives you a replacement pool. One month of Hitachi engine production then convert to Nakajima, and two months of Ki-54 production, then convert.

3. Produce another two months on the MC-21, then convert to another type.
You have one fully equipped squadron of MC-21's and get no others. You are only producing for the replacement pool here and you don't need that many for it. Producing two more months gives you a pool of 12 for 12 aircraft that should never see combat. If you run out, you run out. Meanwhile, same reasoning as on option 1 above.

4. Double production on the H6K2-L
The H6K2-L has long range, can deliver to dot bases, carries more than any other transport, is durable and armored. The tragedy is you only get two squadrons of this one - 24 a/c with only 8 a/c in them to start, a pool of 8, and production of 2 per month. With no operational losses, you will get your squadrons to full complements in April or May. Personally, I'd rather have this capability sooner and be able to sustain some losses, so I will double the production (to a whopping 4!).

5. Double production on one Ki-57 II Topsy plant and convert the other.
You get 168 Topsy's and 10 per month seems like a decent production rate for them. However, that production is split between two plants. I would double one plant to 10 and convert the other to diversify production on another aircraft or use it for research.

6. Leave the L3Y production alone for the first 6 months. Multiply your operational losses in the first 6 months by 12 and add 36. Stop production when you get to that number.

Torpedo Aircraft
1. Research the B7A.
The B7A is the best Jap torpedo plane. With a top speed of 352 mph and a TBO of 543 a/c, getting this one a few months early can make a difference.

2. Increase the production of the B5N.
At 20 per month, you can replace the aircraft losses of a days operations from KB every month. Granted, KB will not be losing 20 a/c everyday, but 20 is nowhere close enough. I plan to increase production of the B5N to at least 80 a/c.

Recon aircraft
Recon aircraft are important - as important as the skill of your fighter pilots. Nothing is more deadly than information and nothing provides more information than your recon planes. The better they are (and the better their pilots are) the better your strikes will be, the better your warning of invasions will be.

1. Halt the H6K4 plant and let it convert on 1/1/42 to H8K, then restart it and increase production to 16 or 32. You can halt the H8K later when you have a large enough pool.
As good as the H6K4 is, the H8k is better. It is faster (fater even than both the Claude and the Nate), has longer range, is more durable, has more defensive armament, and is more manueverable. Personally, in Jap shoes, I would have considered creating a bomber version of it. That aside, I highly recommend getting your H6K's replaced with H8K's asap. Remember, if you can see it coming, you can react. This guys can give you 2 extra turns of warning on an invasion fleet and that is priceless.

2. Double Ki-46 Dinah II production
The Ki-46 is a big upgrade for the Ki-15 Babs - 77 mph faster, 10 more durability, and a hex longer range. At game start you have 20 of these guys, but putting your *starting* squadrons at full strength will require 186 aircraft, then another 117 for your upgrades. Oh, and you have air-to-air losses and operational losses on top of those. With 31 a/c producing, you will take 6 months to get all of them operational with no losses. That is too slow. Double production to 62.

3. Convert the Ki-36 to something else.
I posted already about the Ki-36 being a dog. With a top speed of 216 miles per hour, this is just a death trap for pilots against any location with CAP. Use them til they are dead since they don't upgrade to anything else. If they can be used for ASW, do that.

4. Halt or convert C5M production to something else.
The C5M upgrades to the J1N1-R Irving in October 42. The pool on this aircraft is small, but you only have 27 TBO on them. If losses mount in this squadron, draw it back until the J1N1-R is available.

5. Don't research anything in recon.
Despite the importance of recon aircraft, there aren't enough of them to get bang for your buck here and the upgrades that can be researched are not significant enough. The best recon aircraft will be the Ki-46 III and TBO for it is only 303 a/c. In the meantime, the Ki-46 is a more than serviceable stopgap until you get the Dinah III in 1/43.

LBA
YOur current LBA is fairly good compared to your future LBA. The improvements are noticeable, but you are in okay shape. Given the upgrade paths in place, no model is a big enough upgrade over it's ancestor to warrant accelerating arrival dates.

1. Halt Nells and let them convert to G4M1 on 1/1/42, then restart.
You save 20,000 supply and the HI. Let the game upgrade you for free in return for delaying production a bit. Pools for both the Nell and the Betty are very large and you can let the Nells and Betty's range against naval targets early without fearing CAP as much, so it isn't really critical to convert G3M's to G4M1's early. You definately want these guys fully stocked, but they are overstocked with big pools to start with. Only when the G4M2 comes in should you try to build large pools of aircraft, since it is a terminal upgrade.

2. You might want to halt the Ki-21 for a while and see what happens.
With a pool of 401 a/c you can lose alot of a/c before you need to think about restarting. If losses get too large, you can restart the plant.

Float planes
1. The E7K2 Alf should be halted.
It has 140 in the pool already and 140 in operation. Evaluate the need for replacements after 6 months and look at what will be needed for new construction, then convert or restart as appropriate.

2. Consider cancelling the F1M2 Pete.
With a tiny range, the Pete is not all that useful for naval search. I plan to put every one on ASW. Given that, I am going to evaluate the need for replacements, build up a pool of them, and stop when I get the number I think I need. Since the majority of losses from this plane are going to be operational losses and going down with the ship, I do not plan to have much wiggle room in my stockpiles of it.

3. Consider canceling the A6M2-N completely.
I have never seen anyone extol the virtues of this aircraft. I probably need to look at it's mission options, but unless I can be used as an armed naval search, recon, or ASW, I probably will never have more than the one operational squadron I can get from the pool I have at start.

Fighter Bombers
There are only 3 Jap FB's and the A6M5c has no upgrade path. The only candidate for action is the Ki-102a Randy (TB0 = 468 a/c), which is the upgrade for the Ki-46 II KAI Dinah (60 a/c), the Ki-45 KAIb Nick (36 a/c), and the Ki-48 Lily (336 a/c). Another 36 a/c come as a reinforcement. The biggest hit on the Randy is a smaller bombload than the Ki-48. It is faster, vastly more manueverable, more durable, armored, longer ranged, and better equipped with guns. The Ki-48 can carry a torpedo, but the Randy can't. I would be tempted to research this one if I felt I could afford it. I put a premium on aircraft that give aircrews a better chance to survive. and the loss of bombload, while significant, is offset by the far superior ability to deliver it to a target. I dont't know if I will actually upgrade it or not, but I definately will give it some thought.

Fighters
This is the most complex category of aircraft, the place wehre you will research the most, and the place with the most opportunity for an impact upon Japan's fortunes in the war. Put simply, the faster you get better aircraft into your front line squadrons, the fewer pilots you will lose. Get the best fighters you can as fast as you can.

1. Increase A6M2 production.
There are 239 a/c operational now, you need replacements for them. Another 330 Claudes need to be converted to A6M2's. I plan to at least double my production of A6M2's.

2. Do hard core research on the A6M5/A6M8/A7M2.
It is all about pilots and numbers of aircraft. By the time you are done, you will have 1910 aircraft in Claude/A6M2/A6M5 squadrons. The faster you get upgrades - any upgrades - the more pilots you will preserve. If it is possible to upgrade a squadron from the A6M5 to the A7M2, then skip research on the A6M8. (I haven't been able to determine if you can skip an upgrade.)

3. Do research on the Ki-43 IIa Oscar.
No, I am not nuts. If you look at the upgrade paths for the Ki-27 Nate, they mostly go to the Oscar - and then nowhere. Unfortunately, there are around 1000 Nates that upgrade to the Oscar. The Oscar is not a bad aircraft, but by late 43, it will suck. It has *very long range*, more guns than a Nate (though still undergunned), is faster, more manueverable, and can carry a bomb. The sooner you get it, the more opportunity you will have to exploit it's strengths - and in more numbers than any aircraft other than the Zero series.

4. Ignore the Shinden
No. Again, I am not nuts. The Shinden is an upgrade to the George and the Jack - both of which are comparatively good aircraft with longer legs than the Shinden. You are better off upgrading 1900 odd A6M's early with A7M2's than you are if you upgrade 465 Jacks and Georges.

Dive Bombers
1. At least double production of the D3A Val
See notes on the B5N. Same deal.

2. Research the D4Y
See notes on the B7A. Same deal.

Great analysis, will study it carefully. Thanks!

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng
4. Ignore the Shinden
No. Again, I am not nuts. The Shinden is an upgrade to the George and the Jack - both of which are comparatively good aircraft with longer legs than the Shinden. You are better off upgrading 1900 odd A6M's early with A7M2's than you are if you upgrade 465 Jacks and Georges.

I must strongly disagree with you here. The Shinden is the FASTEST plane in the game. Since speed seems to be the #1 charactistic that determins air-to-air success (by far), it is a no-brainer to research this plane and get it as quickly as possible. Besides, it is the coolest looking plane in the game. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng
4. Ignore the Shinden
No. Again, I am not nuts. The Shinden is an upgrade to the George and the Jack - both of which are comparatively good aircraft with longer legs than the Shinden. You are better off upgrading 1900 odd A6M's early with A7M2's than you are if you upgrade 465 Jacks and Georges.

I must strongly disagree with you here. The Shinden is the FASTEST plane in the game. Since speed seems to be the #1 charactistic that determins air-to-air success (by far), it is a no-brainer to research this plane and get it as quickly as possible. Besides, it is the coolest looking plane in the game. [:D]

There is no doubt that the Shinden is the best Jap fighter - and probably the best fighter period that is modelled in the game. However, only 465 a/c can upgrade to it and it is arguable whether you will ever be able to produce any. Frankly, even researching the A6M8/Reppu is pushing it. The question is where to place your bets for the most return. Limited numbers that can be upgraded to, limited range, and very late availability make it a questionable choice to start research it at game start imo. As it gets closer to August 45, I may feel differently. If the Jap economy is in good shape as I get into late 43, I will probably start researching it then. For now, I plan to place what I regard to be safer bets.

Am I the only one who thought the Production management system would give you the same freedom that 12'o'Clock High provided? Is anyone else as frustrated by this as I am?

1. I would like to research an aircraft and when it comes into the game early due to all my blood sweat and tears (not to mention staving off the allied hordes with stopgap aircraft) actually transition frontline units rather than waiting another 6-12 months for the "Historic" units in the OOB to arrive. I fell like I'm taking crazy-pills here[:D]

2. Ok you are Tojo. You go to a fly off of the A6M3 LRIP (Low rate initial production) aircraft say BuNo 002 and the new A6M5 Zeke prototype. Wow! You say "That A6M5 is a great airplane. Lets build that instead of the A6M3, I don't care if we have to operate those old A6M2s for another 6-12 months. The pay off will be worth it when we are losing the war" [;)] But your advisor leans over and says, "Um sir, we have to build the A6M3 in large numbers before we can convert to the A6M5...."

"Why?" you ask.

"Umm, Because our plants are hard coded that way."

Now lets say you are the CO of the first Shiden group the 341st Kokutai. It is the winter of 43'. You ask "Where are the Shiden's that Kawanishi's Naruo plant promised me? we are deploying to the Phillipines in 3 months!" [:@] Your Maintenance officer replies "Sir the Shiden doesn't exist. We have to wait until mid 1944 for the Shiden-KAI." [:-]

I think we need a little more freedom here. I know how history went. I'm not looking to repeat it.

Thoughts? [&:]

Yes and no. The problem is, you take the good with the bad. We have the benefit of hindsight to know that the Shinden and Reppu are going to be a superior aircraft if ever they make it to production and combat with good pilots at the controls. Japan's armed forces didn't know that. If Reppu and Shinden could turn out to be flops, then it mgiht makes sense. Instead, the Japanese player has to accept restrictions on how many of any one type he can deploy and how much he can advance the availability of aircraft.

Part of the problem here is that grognards aren't really interested in exploring what if's. They want the OOB's to be the same as they were, and want to fight smarter than the Japs or Allies did. They care too much about what x squadron did historically and not enough about what it could have done differently had the war evolved differently.

Part of the problem here is that grognards aren't really interested in exploring what if's

not me, fun first, like exploring the what ifs, and then what happens next

I see your point, and I 'm not advocating being able to completely turn over all production on day one to Shinden's. I DO think we need a little more leeway in the upgrade paths however. In other words no one IJAAF unit should necessarily dead end with the Oscar IIa.

If I manage a surplus of Ki-84s by early 44, the Oscar IIa units SHOULD be fairgame to upgrade. In fact ALL army units should be fair game. I would rather be forced to research a certain path and be able to re-equip all units in the path with the Terminal upgrade to use you own vernacular ( which I dig by the way )

Similarly if I get the George into production before the A6M5 or A6M8 my land-based Naval Fighter units should all be fair-game to receive it. I will however STILL need a late war carrier based fighter to R & D, assuming I have the carriers remaining to employ them.

I realize we need to retain a certain amount of historical accuracy, I think if done correctly the game's resource/production mechanics will prevent an all Navy/Army/carrier-based force of Shindens. Not to mention attrition.

On a side note, is it possible to reverse the upgrade process if say there were a shortage of betty's and a suplus of Nell's. IIRC there isn't. There should be.

Not wanting to be picky as I think you've done excellent work here:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng
Fighter Bombers
The biggest hit on the Randy is a smaller bombload than the Ki-48. It is faster, vastly more manueverable, more durable, armored, longer ranged, and better equipped with guns. The Ki-48 can carry a torpedo, but the Randy can't.

The Ki-48 can not carry a torpedo in the game.


Also as a confirmation:

2. Do hard core research on the A6M5/A6M8/A7M2.
If it is possible to upgrade a squadron from the A6M5 to the A7M2, then skip research on the A6M8. (I haven't been able to determine if you can skip an upgrade.)

The units with A6M5s can upgrade directly to the A7M. They do not require the A6M8 to have been researched or available before hand.

Cheers

I concur that the restriction on the upgrade paths the most irritating part of the Japanese production system I've found. I have no problems with hard coding some limitations on research of late model aircraft but agree with The Elf's comments above about the Oscar IIa's. Did the designers decide that because of the complexity of the late model aircraft and Japan's aircraft industry limitations, only limited numbers should be available for use? I can see that up to a point but a player puts more emphasis on aircraft production than historical there should be more rewards for that investment of industry and supply, IMHO.

ORIGINAL: TheElf
If I manage a surplus of Ki-84s by early 44, the Oscar IIa units SHOULD be fairgame to upgrade.

I pestered them while we were doing the beta for this one. [:)] No joy as they had their reasons.

But keep fighting the good fight, you never know what'll happen.

I THINK the real reason is that historically the Oscar was the most important IJAAF single seat fighter, at least numerically. Teething troubles with the Ki-84 Hayate were really the reason the war ended with the Oscar as the mainstay of the IJAAF fighter force. While this seems to be hardcoded in the game, I have to disagree with it in spirit. Seeing as how the Ki-84 was the planned "multi-role" replacement for the Ki-43, Ki-44, Ki-45, Ki-61 etc. it should be the "Terminal" upgrade for the IJAAF fighter force. All Army fighter upgrad paths should end here or meet(as in the case of the Ki-100) here

ORIGINAL: Drongo


But keep fighting the good fight, you never know what'll happen.

Always [;)]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

I THINK the real reason is that historically the Oscar was the most important IJAAF single seat fighter, at least numerically. Teething troubles with the Ki-84 Hayate were really the reason the war ended with the Oscar as the mainstay of the IJAAF fighter force. While this seems to be hardcoded in the game, I have to disagree with it in spirit. Seeing as how the Ki-84 was the planned "multi-role" replacement for the Ki-43, Ki-44, Ki-45, Ki-61 etc. it should be the "Terminal" upgrade for the IJAAF fighter force. All Army fighter upgrad paths should end here or meet(as in the case of the Ki-100) here

Yep, I agree there. The Ki-84 was the replacement for the Ki-43 series, it should be the end of the line. We want our "Gales"!!!

Couldn't you use the scenario editor and fix this upgrade path?

I am hoping this is what Lemurs has done with his Scen 15 mod. I have posted to him regarding the details of this mod, but have yet to see any response.

I have stated since I got the game that BTR and even PacWar methods were the better way to go.

If GG could do the production scheme for BTR, I do not see what the difficulty would be to do it
in WITP. Research yes, but if I make the sacrifice to pour time, energy into researching the heck
out of an a/c then I should be allowed to make the airgroups equip the way I want. To do massive
research you have to scrimp somewhere else. There should be some payoff.

I loved the way I could equip all german fighter groups with FW190a if I wanted (well the single engine
day fighters anyway). But I paid for that investment by having to wait months sometimes for those
factories to come on line.

Amen brother.

I especially enjoyed BTR after all the OOB mods by Jean Claude. THAT is what made the game great. By Late 43' I was already equipping my NachyJagd units with hi-rate production He-219s, very satisfying.

You could also access the pool and retrofit a unit if you were short of newer models or wanted to rest a Geschwader in Bavaria. You could take a frontline FW-190 unit off duty re-equip with old Me-109G-5s as place holders and give the 190s they had to a unit you were rotating to the front after a summer in the mountains. That was the kind of management freedom I really enjoyed.

I also agree that any aggressive R & D while seemingly advantageous to the Japanese usually entails a trade off. For instance flying already obsolete or aging aircraft and skipping a generation of design while banking on the next level of design. ie A6M2 to A6M5.

I don't think I ever played BTR. I assume you could play it from either side and that both sides could freely R&D and upgrade?

I think in WitP the Japanese player's freedom (or lack of) with aircraft production and how he can use it was always going to be somewhat constrained by the fact that the Allied player has no ability at all to change his "historical" mix.

Complete freedom for the Japanese to R&D/re-equip would really have to be accompanied by a similar ability for the Allies. I'm not sure whether that fits in with the design intent for the game (the designers are the best ones to answer that).