Matrix Games Forums

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Well I've thought about this and decided I rather like this feature. It allows "odd" events to happen rather than the usual "more numbers wins". Also, it's the only non-suicidal way the Japanese are going to sink anything in the later stages of the war.

Anyway, the search planes do have to get through CAP/AA before they get to spot the ships so why is it a problem? CAP = 60% does not mean 60% of fighters in the air at all times. I would guess that in this case the game is only "fighting" the search plane against the 3-4 planes actually in the air. No scrambling the whole squadron for a single search plane ...

Please read the old post above (especially from me).

BTW, you can even have LRCAP over single ship TF 1 HEX from base (or in base) and yet the "Naval Search" aircraft will go through and bomb that ship you wanted to protect (in UV this was usually MSW which was irreplecable)...


Leo "Apollo11"

USS Hancock was hit by a single plane that avoided CAP and flak in 1945. The Americans had fleet defense pretty wired by then but still the occasional "leaker" happened. Don't think the plane involved was an armed search plane though.

Don't feel all that sorry for the Japanese fan boys who put up 150 Zeroes on CAP over one of their "Death Stars" and without any Fighter Direction Center or even radios in 9/10's of the planes intercept EVERY raid with pretty much the whole force (in UV- don't know about WiTP). Suuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrre - just like real.

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Well I've thought about this and decided I rather like this feature. It allows "odd" events to happen rather than the usual "more numbers wins". Also, it's the only non-suicidal way the Japanese are going to sink anything in the later stages of the war.

Anyway, the search planes do have to get through CAP/AA before they get to spot the ships so why is it a problem? CAP = 60% does not mean 60% of fighters in the air at all times. I would guess that in this case the game is only "fighting" the search plane against the 3-4 planes actually in the air. No scrambling the whole squadron for a single search plane ...

Please read the old post above (especially from me).

BTW, you can even have LRCAP over single ship TF 1 HEX from base (or in base) and yet the "Naval Search" aircraft will go through and bomb that ship you wanted to protect (in UV this was usually MSW which was irreplecable)...


Leo "Apollo11"

Well OK maybe it is a bit broken, I don't know. The lack of response from testers/devs would seem to indicate that they don't consider it a problem however ...

I am sincerely hoping that I never have to resort to gamey stuff like LRCAPing a single MSW in this game:

a) Mines seem to have been toned down a bit
b) You get effectively an infinite number of minesweepers
b) The map is much bigger, mining a single particular base is less important

USS Hancock was hit by a single plane that avoided CAP and flak in 1945. The Americans had fleet defense pretty wired by then but still the occasional "leaker" happened. Don't think the plane involved was an armed search plane though.

This was on March 11, 1945 at Ulithi which at the time was felt to be "safe" due to it being several hundred miles from any operating Japanese airbase. The plane was a Frances that was on a super-long-range kamikaze mission.

The main objective of the Japanese raid was to attack American ships anchored in Ulithi Atoll. When Japanese intelligence found that large numbers of Task Force 58 ships were at Ulithi, the air raid was to be carried out March 10, 1945. However, a mix-up in decoding intelligence-transmissions from Truk forced a delay of the mission, and the attack was postponed until the next day.

The operation involved twenty-four Frances bombers from Japan's Azusa Special Attack Unit, based at Minami Daito Shima, 800 miles from Ulithi. Emily flying-boats and other land based bombers were to assist the flight, providing weather reconnaissance, advance patrols, and guides to lead the twenty-four bombers to Ulithi. Bad luck, poor maintenance, and other troubles began to plague the flight. One of the Emily guides disappeared, six of the bombers had to turn back because of engine trouble, and the flight, already thirty minutes behind schedule, was forced to climb above clouds, losing critical visual navigation checkpoints.

When they descended through the overcast some eight hours later, supposedly on top of Ulithi, they were near Yap Island, 120 miles west of Ulithi because of a navigational error and unexpected head winds.(It led our American commanders at the time to assume the planes were from Yap Island.) Instead of the original twenty-four bombers, only two reached Ulithi, well after dark. They started their suicide attacks at 2005.

A twin-engine Japanese bomber (Frances) hit the flight deck aft, starboard side exploding between flight and gallery decks at frame 205-210, destroying planes in vicinity of flight and hangar decks, the CO2 Room, Aviation Repair Shop, and the fantail. Personnel in the near vicinity were killed or injured, fire broke out in the hangar deck aft, 40-MM and 20-MM ammunition was detonated.

Final casualties: 26 killed, 3 missing and 105 wounded.

(Edited to add details of kamikaze raid)

Well A lone plane even a bomber is difficult to intercept. Even with primitive radar A Lone PbY or PB4Y might not be seen. As for Cap, it is Combat Air Patrol. They fly a pre-arranged pattern through out the patrol sector. If you have there range set to say 4, they are patroling over 4 hexes. How many times have you seen CAP from a base, that was not on LR CAP cover a TF in adjacent hexes? As for dropping bombs and hitting sighted targets, why not? Most of the time they are un-defended. If the cap has not intercepted them, Drop the bombs, what is there to lose for the bomber?

UB

Just seems wrong when you place you're level bombers on naval attack and they take heavy losses for several turns with no results. Then you set them all to naval search and you take few if any losses and start getting hits.

Look at it from the point of view of a Catalina pilot. As you approach the port you don't see any CAP so you approach closer. As you get within a mile or so all you see are a couple fighters which are not yet in a position to engage you. Do you:

A) Make a sighting report on the port, take pictures and get away having fully completed your mission.

B) Launch an attack with your measly 50 lb bombs knowing that every AA gun will be firing at just you and knowing that those fighters will soon be in position to chase you down. Also realizing that there may be additional fighters which you have not yet visually identified in the area.

Option b really is a suicide mission and it will be the same for most any level bomber or patrol aircraft. If you don't have the speed to evade the enemy fighters you are not going to spend time unescorted over enemy bases.

You seem to be assuming that any Fighters are in the area. I do not thik that the Search planes are encountering CAP and then attacking. It is probbly they see no CAP anywhere and then why not? In the case of the PB4Y it is carrying 10 500lb bombs, that is not measley. The PBY Catalina carries I beleive 2 or 4 500's or 2 torpedoes. None of that is Measley. Especially when you consider they do not have to change the flight profile to drop them. THey do not dive bomb they level bomb just hit the pickle switch and there they go. I do nto beleive the PBY's carry torpedoes on thier search missons.

UB

My assumption is that over bases where there is significant CAP coverage there are normally at least a couple aircraft airborne most of the time. Even during gaps in coverage a naval search pilot with any survival instinct will assume CAP is present over any base hex where CAP has been operating. In general a pilot on a search mission will not attack any target presumed to be heavily defended.

Aircraft on search missions are armed in order to allow attacks against lightly defended targets which could be encountered during the mission. Targets such as subs, tranports, and crippled warships could often be engaged at acceptable risk. Otherwise the pilot conducts his mission which is to search and report.

Right there you answered your own argument. the Patrol skipper beleives that it is acceptable level of risk. He timed it right, the CAP was not over the base and he is able to get a line up on the target. What is the problem? Heavily defended targets with lots of ASSIGNED cap does nto mean that there will be lots of planes up all the time. You are right I am sure there will be a flight up all the time, maybe 2 to 4 planes, but the rest are in ready position. If they get information as to a flight of planes coming they scramble. A lone plane ID'd as a PBY or other recon plane would probably not cause a scramble, and woudl not call for the CAP on Patrol at teh time to be re-vectored to the inbound, unless it was demed fairly easy. Why try to intercept a lone recon plane with your fighters? The Fule they burn increasing from cruise speed to intercept and that they woudl now be out of position from there normal CAP routine would not be very smart. You fly a specific CAP patteern to give coverage to the area, if you break that to go after teh lone plane you are throwing your patrol pattern out the window for littel gain. What ahppens when you leave your patrol area and miss the flight of attack planes coming? Woudl it be better to kill the scout that woudl tell the incoming guys, it is ok or let him in and attack the attack planes that are on the way?

UB

and do you have hit reports from search planes over ports or open sea ?

I have hit reports mostly over open sea only, over ports is my usual message after sighting folowed by message <Naval search Plane> damaged by flak or shot down and sometimes CAP pilots increase their score (one of my brave pilots over Saigon scored three hits on enemy patrols within a day)

Arkady

Now with this topic I have been paying closer attention to such happenings and noticed in the past couple turns the damn Do24s are making attacks on TF docked at ports under CAP a lot.. PBYs don't do it.. Mavis' don't do it... Wonder if there is something wrong with the Do24 code making them extra aggressive...

As for recon planes not encountering CAP at all... not true.. I have seen both mine and enemy planes shot down.. During the spotting air phase I will occaisonally get a remark about a pilot gaining a kill or planes taking flak damage. So the aspect of ships at sea work.. just not ships docked at a port maybe..

Xargun

The lower you fly, the better the chances they drop bombs. THe lower you fly, the better the chances they are shot down.

Choose your poison [;)]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The lower you fly, the better the chances they drop bombs. THe lower you fly, the better the chances they are shot down.

Choose your poison [;)]

Scout planes score more hits than they get shot down.. Not much of a choice...

Xargun

Scout planes score more hits than they get shot down.. Not much of a choice...

Never found that to be the case unless we are talking unescorted ships. I loose planes all the time this way.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Scout planes score more hits than they get shot down.. Not much of a choice...

Never found that to be the case unless we are talking unescorted ships. I loose planes all the time this way.

Maybe they just don't report them all ??

Xargun

It is difficult to track these patrol attacks as they don't show up in Combat Reports. I have confirmed two definite hits out of the four reported, both in tf's docked in port with CAP. I agree that combat aircraft should have a chance to break through the heaviest CAP and AAA and score a rare hit. Just seems these planes are just a bit too effective.

In reply to unclebuck:

Just because you don't see CAP aircraft doesn't mean they're not there. Its the plane you don't see that kills you. If you are a single naval search aircraft you are going to stay away from locations presumed to be heavily defended.

I don't have time to test this but it would be easy. Play as allied player vs JP AI. Set all aircraft on naval search and leave everything else alone. Run about 7 days and see what you hit. Only problem is you do have to sit and watch the reports as they come in as I don't think these attacks show up on the combat report.

I -know- that search planes will get clobbered by CAP.

You can test this by putting the Tone w/ her 13 scouts next to a USN Carrier TF. Set the planes to CAP 100%, and stand-down the bombers.

Next turn, you'll get
"Lt. Dixon is credited with kill #2."
"Lt. Dixon is credited with kill #3."
"Lt. Dixon is credited with kill #4"
"Lt. Dixon is credited with kill #5."
"Lt. Dixon is credited with kill #6."
"Lt. Avery is credit with kill #5."
"Lt. Avery is credit with kill #6."
"Lt. Avery is credit with kill #7."
"Cpt. Miller is credited with kill #4"
"Cpt. Miller is credited with kill #5."
"Cpt. Miller is credited with kill #6."

Check the aircraft losess. 11 Alfs.

-F-


(* as to whether the could/should get thru the CAP, no opinion. I know that historically, that's the very reason the USN put the 100lb bombs on the SBD scouts. To maybe put a lucky hit into the flight deck of an enemy CV, and put it's deck out of commssion, until a strike could be sent *).

But do I think it's too frequent or over-powered. I don't know it's historical effectiveness, so I don't make a call. It's even for both sides, so it's not really a detractor.

Can you please tell me how WW2 Recon pilots were able to do recon without over flying Dangerous targets? I mean hel if you are already over it why not loose the extra weight under teh wings?

UB

First recon and naval search are two different missions. Second its not neccessary to fly directly over a target in order to get pictures. Third you can optimize for survivability by not carrying bombs to maximize altitude and speed.

What you cannot generally do is fly a single search aircraft directly over a heavily defended target, drop your bombs, and fly away unmolested.