Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:36 pm**

I know what you're referring to but I'd like to keep it to the Dietrich thread rather than have this one derailed too[:)] Please.

Posted: **Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:41 pm**

ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

I know what you're referring to but I'd like to keep it to the Dietrich thread rather than have this one derailed too[:)] Please.

You mean the same way the other thread has been derailed by several of you [;)]

Posted: **Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:45 pm**

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

I know what you're referring to but I'd like to keep it to the Dietrich thread rather than have this one derailed too[:)] Please.

You mean the same way the other thread has been derailed by several of you [;)]

This is unnecessary and unbecoming of a man of your intelligence and erudition. I respect your views and opinions even if I don't agree with them[;)]. Please let us keep things civil.

Posted: **Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:54 pm**

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

I'll give it five minutes before he gets a mention.....[;)]

Are air and Naval Commanders excluded. Are we discussing Land Commanders only at this point (might be easier as they are easier to compare).

Regards,
IronDuke

I am pyschic. I shall change my name to IronPyschic. For my next prediction.

I see words...I see lots of words....I see lots of very familiar words reprinted for the many hundredth of time, giving the false appearence they are wondrous. But beware of these words, for they are false and bring a troublesome wind of hot air in their wake. I see the forces of the just and studious riding forth to battle this wind, and at the end of the mother of all battles, I see a man standing acrest the fallen, padlock in hand, and he shall be called Vic.....

I also think we should have a sweep. I reckon we'll see the list of third Army achievements reprinted before we get the old favourite "German Commanders who praised Patton". I don't think we'll see the "list of Amazon reviews praising D'Este book" anymore but we might see a new one about Farago. Any takers?

Onto the Italians, wasn't there a recent book about Italian armour in the western desert that tried to rehabilitate the reputation of the Italian Army. Anyone read it? Otherwise I agree with Kev, the Navy had it's moments when it had some fuel. It does lead us back, though, to the issue of combat proficiency. It seems fairly well established the average Italian soldier wasn't all that keen on the second world war. Is it possible for any Italian Commander in these circumstances to shine? The best laid plans will fall if the men at the sharp end are not good enough to carry it out.

Early contenders for me in the Allied stakes would be Collins and early O'Connor. I've said before none of the major Allied Commanders strike me as especially good. Where they have some talent, it isn't rounded enough to make them an outstanding Commander (Monty, Pa**** etc). At cOrp and Divisonal level, though, we can find some gems.

Regards,
IronDuke

Referring to my last post to VR, the same things apply to you[;)]

Regarding the Italian Army (to get things back slightly on track), they fought reasonably well in North Africa when suitably 'stiffened' by the DAK. The 'Chain of Command' in the desert seems a touch murky though so it's tough to give credit where it otherwise may be due.

Posted: **Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:56 pm**

ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

I know what you're referring to but I'd like to keep it to the Dietrich thread rather than have this one derailed too[:)] Please.

You mean the same way the other thread has been derailed by several of you [;)]

This is unnecessary and unbecoming of a man of your intelligence and erudition. I respect your views and opinions even if I don't agree with them[;)]. Please let us keep things civil.

LOL

Where was this opinion in the last three pages of the "Sepp" thread?

So spare me your contrite remarks. [8|]

Posted: **Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:16 pm**

Regarding the Italian Army, this seems to be a good website - http://www.comandosupremo.com/index.shtml - although I haven't explored it in any depth.

Posted: **Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:22 pm**

Shows how much I know, just checked that Italian Army site and it gives a full OOB for the Italian Army units at Gazala.

Posted: **Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:29 pm**

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

You mean the same way the other thread has been derailed by several of you [;)]

This is unnecessary and unbecoming of a man of your intelligence and erudition. I respect your views and opinions even if I don't agree with them[;)]. Please let us keep things civil.

LOL

Where was this opinion in the last three pages of the "Sepp" thread?

So spare me your contrite remarks. [8|]

It seems some people just have to have the last word...

Posted: **Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:40 pm**

Moving on swiftly[;)], my reading of the Italian contribution to Rommel's campaigns is that the two armoured divisions, 'Trieste' and 'Ariete', performed quite creditably.

"LIBYA

May 31 - Italian guns inflict heavy losses on the British near Sidra Ridge. The Ariete pound the II and XXII Armoured Brigade. Bastico reports "The Italian XX Corps fought well, the DAK, not so well. The 90th Light was in retreat."

June 1 - Rommels Axis forces break through the Gazala line, destroying 100 British tanks and taking 3,000 British POW's.

June 5 - 6 - British Commonwealth forces mount a major counteroffensive code named "Aberdeen". The Italian X Corps holds them up in the North and the Trieste and 90th Light contain the French at Bir Hacheim. The Ariete joins the 15th and 21st Panzer to battle the 42nd and 7th Royal Tank Regiments, including the II, IV and XXII Armoured, IX and X Indian and the CCI Guards brigades. The Ariete and Italian artillery repulse the British at Sidra and Aslagh ridges. Italian forces account for 60 to 168 cruiser and 60 'I" tanks lost by the Commonwealth forces between June 5 and 6.

June 7 - Italian forces rescue the German XV Brigade near Gazala."

I therefore nominate Generals Baldassarre and Gioda into the pantheon of Italian commanders who performed creditably.

Two more to go!!! [:D]

Posted: **Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:04 pm**

Oh no you two dont! No ironduke vs. von rom insanity!!

That said, there's no reason to disclude Patton. But Slim is something else. When we say allied we probably don't mean the Soviets right? If it did I'd like to recognize Lelyushenko of the 6th Tank Army against the Japanese. At least as far as operational planning and command are concerned.

Tomo

Posted: **Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:30 am**

I don't have a problem with including the Soviet commanders, I think Zhukov was a fine commander (okay, I know he's the best known[;)]). I have to say that I'd not heard of Lelyushenko before, so would this be Dmitry Lelyushenko, commander of the 21st Mechanised Corps in 1941? I only ask because I did a Google search and his name pops up in an article at - http://www.redarmystudies.net/0411030.htm

Posted: **Sun Aug 29, 2004 10:10 pm**

ORIGINAL: a19999577

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

This is unnecessary and unbecoming of a man of your intelligence and erudition. I respect your views and opinions even if I don't agree with them[;)]. Please let us keep things civil.

LOL

Where was this opinion in the last three pages of the "Sepp" thread?

It seems some people just have to have the last word...

a19999577:

First, my posts were made in reply to posts being addressed to me. Considering that you and everyone else also post replies when being addressed, your comment is highly selective and uncalled for.

Second, who are you to tell Kevinugly and myself, when, and to whom, we may address a post?

Have a nice day. . .

Posted: **Sun Aug 29, 2004 10:29 pm**

Nimitz.

When I've got more time I might come back with a long post why.

Posted: **Mon Aug 30, 2004 12:05 am**

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: a19999577

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

LOL

Where was this opinion in the last three pages of the "Sepp" thread?

It seems some people just have to have the last word...

a19999577:

First, my posts were made in reply to posts being addressed to me. Considering that you and everyone else also post replies when being addressed, your comment is highly selective and uncalled for.

Second, who are you to tell Kevinugly and myself, when, and to whom, we may address a post?

Have a nice day. . .

Thanks for proving my point. [:)]

Have a nice day too.

PS: And please don't think I've overlooked the fact that you've deleted your final remark and eye-rolling in your previous post, which makes you look a lot more 'happy-go-lucky' and thus makes me look somewhat recalcitrant.

Posted: **Mon Aug 30, 2004 1:25 am**

ORIGINAL: a19999577

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: a19999577

It seems some people just have to have the last word...

a19999577:

First, my posts were made in reply to posts being addressed to me. Considering that you and everyone else also post replies when being addressed, your comment is highly selective and uncalled for.

Second, who are you to tell Kevinugly and myself, when, and to whom, we may address a post?

Have a nice day. . .

[NOTE: Edited for space]

Thanks for proving my point. [:)]

your previous post makes you look a lot more 'happy-go-lucky' and thus makes me look somewhat recalcitrant.

I see you have to have the last word too, so welcome to the club. [;)]

Therefore, you are doing EXACTLY what you accuse others of doing [;)]

You jumped into the middle of a conversation, expressing highly selective comments, which had absolutely NOTHING to do with you.

If your gratutious comments make you look recalcitrant, then you have only yourself to blame.

And yes, I am a very "happy go lucky guy" [:D]

The comments between Kevinugly and myself were all expressed in good fun. We have bantered quite a bit in the past, so we are used to each other.

Have a nice day.

Posted: **Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:46 am**

Now I know that as well as you do VR, and I hope a good night's sleep finds you refreshed. However, I'm sure you've read Vic's 'comment' when he locked up the 'Dietrich' thread so maybe we should ensure our banter is as overt as possible.

Anyway, since this is a 'No Patton' thread (NO PATTON I SAID!!) and, hopefully, a 'praise' rather than 'damn' a commander discussion, I would be interested to know whether there are any other Allied commanders you would rate (apart from P****n[;)])?

Posted: **Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:16 am**

ORIGINAL: Kevinugly

Now I know that as well as you do VR, and I hope a good night's sleep finds you refreshed. However, I'm sure you've read Vic's 'comment' when he locked up the 'Dietrich' thread so maybe we should ensure our banter is as overt as possible.

Anyway, since this is a 'No Patton' thread (NO PATTON I SAID!!) and, hopefully, a 'praise' rather than 'damn' a commander discussion, I would be interested to know whether there are any other Allied commanders you would rate (apart from P****n[;)])?

Heheh

See what happens when someone tries to come between us [;)]

So maybe we really do like each other [:D]

I'm not one to bear a grudge.

But I also believe in fair play.

Before I mention another commander I would like to see who else others think is good.

Cheers!

Posted: **Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:25 am**

Ok Von Rom you asked for it . What about McAuliffe acting commander of the 101st in the Battle of the Bulge. I can't think of a bigger resonsibility then McAuliffe was handed in Bastoge as Gen. Taylor was in Washington. And spare me the Patton save the day BS. The 101st held that line . OMG I got sucked in agian.....lol

Posted: **Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:27 am**

Heheh

See what happens when someone tries to come between us

So maybe we really do like each other

C'mon, we don't want to give a wrong impression here do we[;)]

Before I mention another commander I would like to see who else others think is good.

As long as everybody else who may contribute doesn't feel the same way that's okay by me[:)]

After Hertston threw Nimitz into the pot it got me thinking about the Pacific Campaign so I'll throw in Raymond Spruance although, like Hertston, I'll have to leave my reasoning to a later date (i.e. when I'm not [>:])

Posted: **Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:28 am**

Sarge, don't encourage him pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease[:D]

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