Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Almost forgot:

Halt construction of CV Shinano and the 3rd Yamato BB he added.

The Shinano IS the 3rd Yamato Class BB!

Not in Lemurs ver 4.0. he added another BB in there. I also have one of his Scenario's that does not have any Yamato class BB's at all.

He can make 1943 a lot easier by inflicting damage on the Japanese in 1942.

Hay Mogman.. quick ?, are you talking about general damage, or Cv damage in the above statement... I am taking a beating to my fleet in early 42 as the allies in a pbem game, but have really slowed my oponents grab in DEI. I lost 2 brit BB, not pow thankfully, one us old bb, non at ph thankfully, and one cv oops. DEc 41 screwup by myself. I am way behind in points, but keep getting more points as I sink troopships, and destroy his planes/lcus. I am very concerned about his, Zeta16s unseen cv's, Hyriu just seen in DEI supporting raids/invasion. other 5 unacounted for...

What Jap assetts other than Cvs should I be worried about?

ORIGINAL: freeboy

He can make 1943 a lot easier by inflicting damage on the Japanese in 1942.

Hay Mogman.. quick ?, are you talking about general damage, or Cv damage in the above statement... I am taking a beating to my fleet in early 42 as the allies in a pbem game, but have really slowed my oponents grab in DEI. I lost 2 brit BB, not pow thankfully, one us old bb, non at ph thankfully, and one cv oops. DEc 41 screwup by myself. I am way behind in points, but keep getting more points as I sink troopships, and destroy his planes/lcus. I am very concerned about his, Zeta16s unseen cv's, Hyriu just seen in DEI supporting raids/invasion. other 5 unacounted for...

What Jap assetts other than Cvs should I be worried about?

Just on the carriers. Assuming the Japanese keeps the KB that attacks PH together for the duration of the conquest phase. Japs have six CV's. Four have 84 combat a/c capacity, one has 72 and the other has 71. Assume you are able to keep your all you carriers out of harms way through Mar 42. By this time you have five CVs with 92 a/c capacity. Your aircrews may be a bit less experienced than the Japs depending on how heavy a useage the Jap player made of the KB in support of DEI operations. You get all your sunk carriers back as Essex boats in 1943. He gets nothing back. You get ever better pilots flying ever better a/c back. He does not. If you can catch the KB with their pants down in Apr-Jun 1942 you may take more damage than they do, but if you sink one and heavily damage two more, even if you lose two or three of yours, I think you win that one, especially if you take out a few dozen Jap pilots in the engagement....

Contrary to Henry Fonda's statement in Midway movie following the Coral Sea campaign about not trading the Japs carrier for carrier, if I could do that as the allied player with my starting five, I would in a heart beat.....

well, before my oponent started his next wave attacks in China, Burmaa and DEI, he was getting really ahead in points.. it is now around 12k to 4300, and he needs a 4-1 in Janm 43 to get an auto vitory.. so I am a little concerned about tossing away my carriers Zommie!!!
Now I know he will lose more planes/ troops, but he also gets more points on bases as he takes over DEI, and the remaining PI and Burma area he needs to mop up, as well as solomons. can I inflict enough damage in 42 to stave off 4 - 1 defeat in 43 by killing his fleets/planes? not without my carrier air wings... what has gone right for me? I really slowed down his expansion in Burma/ Borneo and Dei, and bombed the ccrap out of Palambangoroo from Batavia, it is early April... thanks for the input

Hi, I am speaking of damage in general.

The Allied player has no choice concerning some of the battles and what material he is going to lose. In the SRA every LCU is gone. It should try to kill as much as it can.
However the ships and airgroups can escape so these should fight as long as they can inflict more damage then they sustain and then move to safety.

Outside the SRA it is really up to the Allied player where he fights. So what if the Japanese capture a lot of empty bases. Just defend those bases where the Japanese must bring the entire farm in order for them to capture the base. The Allied player should never risk a aircarft or ship in any battle where he is not fighting for his life unless he can inflict more damage then he gets in return. Why risk ships bombarding Japanese bases for no reason. Why send outnumbered aircraft up to fight over hexes that mean nothing. Outside the early months in the SRA the Allied player should always have air superiorty where he commits his airgroups to combat. (Train them if you don't outnumber the Japanese at bases beyond the Japanese reach) Keep your ships out of reach unless there is a place they can win a battle at. Don't just defend your main bases OVER DEFEND them. Make it so that if the enemy appears in an attempt to capture the base or inflict damage he is the one who retires after heavy loss.

Mogami's primary rule of combat is : "The more you use the less you lose." If you over kill the enemy you win the battle with less cost to yourself. If there is a place where you can do this and your defense does not suffer as a result of employing the force then this is what you should do. If you have to say "it might be enough" then it is not enough.

If in 1942 the Japanese present a target that you can inflict more damage to then it gives in return and you do not have to weaken the defense of any point then you attack.
The Japanese can get that first 10k or 12k of VP compared to 4k for Allies . Then they have to find that last 4-6k to win the auto victory. Do not give away any free point but extract for yourself every point you can. 1k is a lot to try to pull from thin air.

(but concerning CV I agree that if I can trade 1 for 1 USN for IJN CV I would do so)

Historically the Allies would NEVER "surrender" due to any "score".

If I'm not mistaken in the next patch you don't have to either. A game where Japan has 5-1 in score in Jan 1943 could make for some very interesting battles...

Mogami,

Please note that I have not changed any research factory, only doubled my research of the B7Y to (22). All others are the same as a stock scenario 15. Other players may mess with them, but I do not. If you mess with them, you may not get your a/c when you are supposed to get it. Early I would like, but late nope.

I do add to existing production and change a/c being produced. I also want to see mid 43 games to see if I screwed up early war. So far in Feb 42, my production is all repaired, my supplies in Japan are rapidly increasing. The only problems I have found so far is keeping pilots in my pool. but once my disbanded units reappear, I hope this will change for the better. I still say 90 days is too long. 60 days I could live with.

ORIGINAL: sveint

Historically the Allies would NEVER "surrender" due to any "score".

If I'm not mistaken in the next patch you don't have to either. A game where Japan has 5-1 in score in Jan 1943 could make for some very interesting battles...

Hi Prehaps some kind of base score would have to be added to auto victory. Something like one side has scored 40k points and that is more then 4 to 1. If one side has scored 40k points and the other fewer then 10k then 1943 is going to be one sided in favor of the side that scored all the points in 1942. Even allied production cannot replace everything by 1943 where the allied player can reverse the trend and if he is not on the offensive before the end of 1943 then he is not going to win the game. It's simply a matter of how much one player wants to force the other player to endure after the issue is no longer in doubt. The Japanese player has to be prepared for a certain amount of one sided suffering in the attempt to reach Mar 1946 however the Allied player who is unable to conduct operations in 1943 or 44 has lost and there is nothing left for him but to concede the game. If the Japanese score more then 20k points in 1942 and you have scored less then 5k you are losing the war at a pace that cannot be reversed within the time frame the game provides. (If you had till 1947-48 then yes the Allies would win the war)

WITP events can be calculated. Once the Allies have the bomber bases in range of Japan they need 80-100 days of good weather to pulverize Japan. Figure that requires 160-200 days of actual play. Once Japan no longer produces supply enough to feed the LCU and fly the airgroups invading Japan is simply a matter of moving 6-8 divisions there with support and supply and spending a month marching around taking cities and pushing the Japanese into the hills. So the Allies need to have their airfields not later then June 1945 to be considered in position to win by conquest. If they have already scored the 2-1 points ratio then the Japanese have lost outright.

Prehaps I am just not enough of a sadist. I say end the game when the point ratios are met but that is just me. I will not play past that event no matter what it means. (I win or lose according to the point ratio)
If Japan gets 4-1 on me in 1943 I will give them my password and they can play on. They really don't need me after that.

Mogami, thanks for the insight, this is my 2nd game as Allies, and I have done well, and also poorly as has my oponent. I should not have lost any major ships... hard lessons not forgotten. CV usage scares me until my oponent commits to a major advance, but he is a shrewd enemy taking things slowly... too slowly perhaps as I got a lot of fuel/oil and resources shipped out of dei befor what has fallen fell. I am sure that I can continue to whittle away... My biggest fear using my carries are those darned lba and the torps !!!

And I see the NEW patch will allow even more jap planes to carry torpedoes... will this take affect on non restart games, or only on new games after the patch? guesses are ok..

THANK YOU [&o][&o]

Hi, Changes to .EXE file occur in all games. Changes to OOB/Database require a fresh start to take effect.

point of reference foul!!![:-]
OK which is it then ???
is it a change in the oob, allowing torps or a change in the exe file??????
Please have mercy on me, I am really not sure what you where trying to say HELP?

this is in response to your response [:-]

Hi, Weapons are in the data base.

I say end the game when the point ratios are met but that is just me.

The Allies can lose all their carriers but still win the war if they win in China.

Mogami,
Again, i am not trying to be rude, as you are the resident genius, but Psssahhhawww.

The scenario i have created would of course be useless in Japanese player vs Allied AI. That is not what is was made for.

Sure, as the Japanese player you could convert the 300+ Ki84 factory (which is what Mog seems to be talking about) to A6m2s. It will not start at 300 aircraft a month. It will start at 0. It will probably not even start to repair untill after April '42. Sometime in June '43 it will be producing 300 aircraft so don't give me "Japan producing at '44 levels in '42! Eeeekkk!"
The cost for doing this would be rather horrendous in supply costs that Japan just does not have. The way the game is set the factory will auto start at no cost in '44 . That is the only way to make the factory profitable. I believe any player converting the big research factories to building are shooting themselves in the foot.

I believe i have done more research on supply production, usage and factory building then anyone; what i have found is Japan has VERY little to spare even without big conversions. That is as it should be but don't go around scaring players into thinking Japan can just convert factories and make a huge unstoppable airforce. BS.

One of our problems is we have a plethora of campaign experience in '41-'42, and have virtually none later.
We are panicking that Japan is moving much to fast in '41-'42 so Japan must be too powerfull. What i suspect we will see in '43 is the Allies moving much too fast as well. I suspect virtually no full campaign will last beyond December '44 without Allied victory.
Does that mean it is broken? no, it is a number of factors one of which is hindsight. we live with it.

Now, if Matrix gave us a decent upgrade system for aircraft i could get rid of auto upgrading plants while still having groups upgrade to better aircraft......
nah.

Mike

Sure, as the Japanese player you could convert the 300+ Ki84 factory (which is what Mog seems to be talking about) to A6m2s. It will not start at 300 aircraft a month. It will start at 0. It will probably not even start to repair untill after April '42. Sometime in June '43 it will be producing 300 aircraft so don't give me "Japan producing at '44 levels in '42! Eeeekkk!"

Hi, I don't think I am the residient genuis but I can count. I did not have any specific factory in mind. I just know that you are using 2 production systems. The AI does not expand production the R&D is this expansion. Humans expand factories already producing. (and reach the level the AI gets from R&D coming on line) and gets the R&D production when it comes on line.
Converting the Gumma KI-84 Factories on turn 1 results in 236xA6M2. They repair at 1 per day so every month an extra 30 A6m2 will be produced. (Japan can expand engine production by 30 per month to keep up)

End of Dec 41 Japanese A6M2 production would be +23
End of Jan 42 A6M2 production + 54
End of Feb 42 A6M2 production + 82
End of Mar 42 A6m2 production + 113
End of Apr 42 (when you say they will begin to repair) + 144
End of May + 174
End of June +204
End of July +234
No it will be around Aug 42 when factories are fully producing an extra 236 A6M2 per month. (not June 1943) (by the time the factory fully repairs it will have produced an extra 1028xA6M2 by June 1943 it will have produced an extra 3388xA6m2)(thats 125 Daitai worth of A6M2 produced by a factory that should not even exist)
Cost to Japan 30k supply per month. Japan produces 25k per day.

These aircraft would be over and above what Japan could expand using the real factories.
Those numbers are converting 1 factory complex. Without any R&D models become available for production on historic date. If you don't see a problem then I don't see a problem.

Of course that is not how I would use the R&D factories. I would select the aircraft I most desired early production of and change all the R&D factories to researching it.
The normal Japanese player in order to get any aircraft model ealry would need to halt actual production in order to assign factories to R&D.

But the basic problem is simply this. Remove the R&D and have the Japanese player expand aircraft production. As time passess he will produce more aircraft per month and change types to newer models.

The AI will not expand factories so as the R&D comes on line production increases and newer models are introduced.

Human player expanding only the actual factories and AI production will be very close in number of aircraft produced by end of war.

Now take human Japanese player who expands only the existing factories and leaves R&D alone. As the R&D factories come on line his production will get a free increase. Really using the R&D factories there should not be any hard choices for the Japanese player. He builds everything he wants. By the end of the war he is producing all his normal expansion plus the R&D factories (and he can expand these as well)

Using just that Ki-84 factory. One player would need to convert an existing factory to Ki-84 to produce it. The other will on a certain date just begin producing Ki-84 at 300 per month.
He will continue to produce any other types he desires because he has no need to change models at existing factories. Even if you never tamper with the R&D factories by wars end all the aircraft they produce will have been above and beyond what you should have been able to produce.

So what you are saying is that the 'official' line is that R&d is out. If we remove all of the r&d factories we will not have a factory to spare for research except for maybe the Ki36. So, that means research is out.

Forgive me, but i am going to wait for Joel to give us the word that in the next patch research is out. Until then i will leave it alone.

Your example left a few inconvenient facts out.... you want more engine factories you need more HI. HI expansion requires supply. Engine factory expansion requires supply.
It is not 30K supply per month... a bit higher.

Also, back to my point on expansion. Early in the game unless Japan stops sending supply overseas you will not have enough to expand Gumma. Not gonna happen. April maybe.

leave it the way it is and make a house rule not to change R&d factories... or just change 1 small one per game.
something like that.

Oh, and if research is out i will be pushing forward the arrival dates of most Japanese aircraft as i have an 'assumed' 45 day R&D benefit, about the same as the default scenario.

Mike

Hi, I don't think you are understanding me.
The R&D factories are required by the AI.
The R&D factories can be used by humans but they have to understand if they expand normal factories and use the R&D factories they will have increased production.

How does getting rid of R&D factories prevent Japanese R&D? It just means that they have to take a producing factory and assign it to R&D. Is any Japanese player having trouble producing aircraft with converting R&D factories to production?
The arrival dates of new models are all historic. R&D will advance them. No R&D does not retard them. Japanese players will never get any aircraft type later then historic.

All you as a scenario designer have to do is count actual wartime Japanese aircraft production and compare what the player of your scenario can build. If he cannot match production then he has too few factories or he has changed to building more expensive aircraft. If in 1945 he is producing several times the monthy historic Japanese wartime production then he is able to expand too easy or has too many factories at start.

Factory expansion and managment.

First people are assuming that Japan has to have all the factories running all the time.
No I build A6M2 till my pool is fine then I halt production and start another type. I don't need to convert any factory and so HI is not an issue. I just build what I need when I need it. I can do this because I have too many factories.

A factory less then 100 in size doubles when you expand it. There are quite a few small factories on R&D that can be put into production cheaper then trying to expand larger factories. (rather then commiting 100k supply to expand 1 factory I commit 20k from time to time and spread the increase in production out among several types. )

Your the scenario's designer. You don't need me or Joel to give you a number. Count the factories. Expand them and see how many you get.
Japan's production fell off near the end but I think it peaked in 1944. Total built for war was 76k. (assuming Japan had no aircraft at all on Dec 7 1941 her production avgerage would have been 1652 aircraft per month for 46 months.

Now subtract existing aircraft from 76k and divide by 46. This is actual Japanese monthly average production for war. (say Japan had 4k aircraft on Dec 7 1941. 72k/46=1565 monthly average.

Japan begins producing 677 per month. To reach monthy avg expanding by 888 required.
There are at start 1137 R&D factories. (The AI will produce 1800 aircraft per month when all factories come on line)
Using only existing non R&D factories that begin under size 10 the Japanese can expand production by 300 aircraft per month in the first 30 days. Japan can be producing 1k aircraft per month by Mid Jan 42. Without touching R&D or expanding any factory that begins larger then size 10. She can expand this expasion again and be +600 by Mid March. 1300x42 months=54600 out of 72,000 and this after a very modest expansion and with 1100 aircraft per month yet to come on line. (She only needs a further 400 aircraft per month to meet historic production but has 1100 per month yet to use.

There are 423 points in further factories under size 50 at start not counted in expansion of those under size 10. 1 expansion at each factory produces a further 423 aircraft per month and requires less then 2 months to complete. 1700+ ac per month without using R&D or expanding the over 50 but less then 100 factories. (a further 127 ac per month) and all those under 10 at start factories are now between 20-32 in size and expanding them yeilds a further 600 aircraft in just 30 days. (Now Japan is producing 2400 ac per month with 1100 more still sitting in the bullpen.) This can all be done before Mid 1942. And further expansion of the factories that have now reached size 40 to 64 remains.


Do I have to go on? There are plently of factories for Japan to use to research and still produce all the aircraft they need.

No the arrival dates are not historic.

No, if you get rid of the R&d factories, to do any r&d at all will cause Japan to produce fewer aircraft than they historically did.
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