Page 2 of 2
RE: Question - 17.1 Amphib units and attrition
Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 8:24 pm
by willgamer
Guys:
I think there's a serious misunderstanding of the landing at Omaha-
"As the initial waves landed at 0630, they found an enemy relatively unscathed from air and naval attacks. Furthermore, strong lateral currents and poor navigation brought the assault waves into the beach much differently than planned. As a result, there was much intermingling, and, under the withering enemy fire, the right wing almost disintegrated. Disembarked too far out to sea, all but five of the desperately needed tanks sank, as did many of the amphibious trucks loaded the 105-mm. howitzers." (West Point Atlas of American Wars, commentary on Chart B, V Corps D-Day Operations, Omaha Beach, 6 June 1944).
The chart, actually a full page map, shows very few companies landing in their assigned areas. In many cases, not even with the correct unit to their right or left. In short, this landing was FUBAR from minute 1! Months of studying the details of landing zones up in smoke before the first infantryman touched beach.
FWIW, based on the above, I believe that the landing units should be committed to a broad beach area as doctrine required, with sharply limited/no stacking, before any results are rolled.
Also let me re-state an oddity from my first post: I could only observe strongpoints and units impacting the landing. Fortifications appear to have NO effect.
Edit: for clarity
RE: Question - 17.1 Amphib units and attrition
Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:42 pm
by Black Cat
ORIGINAL: willgamer
Guys:
I think there's a serious misunderstanding of the landing at Omaha-
"As the initial waves landed at 0630, they found an enemy relatively unscathed from air and naval attacks. Furthermore, strong lateral currents and poor navigation brought the assault waves into the beach much differently than planned. As a result, there was much intermingling, and, under the withering enemy fire, the right wing almost disintegrated. Disembarked too far out to sea, all but five of the desperately needed tanks sank, as did many of the amphibious trucks loaded the 105-mm. howitzers." (West Point Atlas of American Wars, commentary on Chart B, V Corps D-Day Operations, Omaha Beach, 6 June 1944).
The chart, actually a full page map, shows very few companies landing in their assigned areas. In many cases, not even with the correct unit to their right or left. In short, this landing was FUBAR from minute 1! Months of studying the details of landing zones up in smoke before the first infantryman touched beach.
FWIW, based on the above, I believe that the landing units should be committed to a broad beach area as doctrine required, with sharply limited/no stacking, before any results are rolled.
Also let me re-state an oddity from my first post: I could only observe strongpoints and units impacting the landing. Fortifications appear to have NO effect.
Edit: for clarity
That seems highly excessive IMO, and will impact the full Game in later turns while playing as the Allies.
Currently, even with the ability to kill off strong points with Naval Gun Fire and land units on " safe " hexs that are not under fire you can lose from 1-4 steps per units on the first day at Omaha since you cannot kill off all the German Strong points. Much more if you get bad die Rolls on the Naval gunfire and land with 3-4 " Blue Dice".
Since the 4 step units represent full Regiments, a 1 step loss is 25% of effectives and 2 steps at 50 % can equal almost 1500+ " real " men.
The actual losses of V Corps at Omaha on June 6th. was 2000 KIA, Wounded, and missing mostly in the 116th. and 16th. Inf. Regiments leading the assault but also Eng. and Rangers. Source: The U.S. Army in WW II, The ETO Cross Channel Attack The Offical History. So, the current system allows losses very close to that, much more with bad dice on the landings.
BTW: I think many of us do Not have any " serious misunderstandings" of the Omaha Beach landings[;)]
RE: Question - 17.1 Amphib units and attrition
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:35 am
by willgamer
Black Cat:
BTW: I think many of us do Not have any " serious misunderstandings" of the Omaha Beach landings
If the shoe doesn't fit....
Currently, even with the ability to kill off strong points with Naval Gun Fire and land units on " safe " hexs that are not under fire you can lose from 1-4 steps per units on the first day at Omaha since you cannot kill off all the German Strong points.
I don't see losing more than 1 step per unit, and often exactly 0. Here's the plan:
1. bombard and clear hex 42,21 and all hexes within 3 of it; I have cleared all these in more than 1 game.
2a. if all are cleared, 4 units can be landed with 0 attrition
2b. if not all clear then the 4 units land with 1 attrition (i've never seen more than 1); that means a maximum of 1 step loss.
3. land all other units on turn 2 as the beachhead is occupied and expanded.
BC, Where are you seeing 1-4 steps potentially lost?
RE: Question - 17.1 Amphib units and attrition
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:27 am
by PresbyterJohn
You will see much higher losses if you attempt to put all of the available Omaha forces onto the beach on turn one because you will have to put them on more than one hex and then they will be taking losses.
I wonder what sort of a trade off it is to hold back your Omaha invasion against an agressive human player?
RE: Question - 17.1 Amphib units and attrition
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:05 am
by DBeves
I agree with pretty much everything being said here and as I believe we all have a pretty good understanding of what happened at Omaha that day I cannot say any of the points being made are invalid at all.
I personally am for some kind of "Initial Wave" limitations being implemented (and given the next game in the series also deals heavily with amphibious assaults - something worth SSG spending some time on).
I think Prester makes a very valid point - If you follow willgamers example in the previous post then what you would be left with is only one beach hex occupied. In such a situation the enemy's primary response to a landing would be to limit the size of the bridge head. so what you would have is four allied units on one hex surrounded by enemy units with the other beaches only open via an "opposed" beach assault. So I would think the "Trade off" for such tactics is a massively reduced beachead size and a much more diffcult route to enlarge it.
Maybe in the end the game is accurate because you (as your real life counterparts) HAVE to land at all the hexes to give yourself the MAXIMUM beachead size to make it exploitable on further turns. Wheteher you go for that maximum beachead and take the concurrent casualties from attrition die rollsis up to the player.
Whether the Germans have enough units to "Seal off" this one hex beachead is down to scenario desgn.
RE: Question - 17.1 Amphib units and attrition
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:41 am
by Capitaine
Not that I'm in favor of first turn deployment limitations, but given the "frozen" nature of most German units through turn 2 (if they aren't proximate to Allied units) and their dispersion, the Germans can't really stage a "beachhead encirclement" anywhere on the coast on turns one or two. And I doubt those "Ost" units would be much trouble to an Allied 4-unit stack were they to try it.
BTW, it is part of my normal strategy NOT to land on Omaha the first day. This is not necessarily due to the threat of casualties, either (although that's a side benefit). This is one reason I like the current rules: You can try unconventional strategies such as not landing immediately on one or more beaches.
RE: Question - 17.1 Amphib units and attrition
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:50 am
by Carl Myers
Remember, this is a day long turn and a regiment coming ashore is not the first wave as the regiment would be coming ashore in several waves.
RE: Question - 17.1 Amphib units and attrition
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:30 pm
by willgamer
but given the "frozen" nature of most German units through turn 2 (if they aren't proximate to Allied units) and their dispersion, the Germans can't really stage a "beachhead encirclement" anywhere on the coast on turns one or two. And I doubt those "Ost" units would be much trouble to an Allied 4-unit stack were they to try it.
Yeah... and don't forget the large (overwhelming?) arty firepower provided by the DDs within about 4 hexes of the beach. Seems to me about the worst thing the Krauts could do is oppose anything where the DDs can hit them. The ai seems to recognize this as its highest priorty seems to be to move all units out of range asap.
Intriguing: either the game model suggests that the American beachhead strategy at Omaha was deeply flawed, or this model needs to be tweaked to reality a little better.