Matrix Games Forums

The problem is that HOI2 is what HOI should have been... In essence, they screwed it up the first time and the gaming community had to fix it... Now the gaming community gets the privilege of paying for HOI2? That's what bothers me the most. If they'd supported the game instead of leaving it in the hands of hardcore gamers to fix, that would be one thing... But they didn't.

I think we should be happy to have three dedicated companies in our niche (strategy gaming) with Matrix, Battlefront and Paradox, and I hope all of them are doing well and keep providing us with good games.

What's wrong with that statement.

I'll tell ya, Matrix Games and Battlefront have earned there stripes. Paradox on the other hand deserves all the nasty remarks we think up.
With some luck they won't last much longer and people won't contine to unknowingly be throwing away funds they might have offered to a company that earned them.

Well I uninstalled the demo...like HOI, this version is not for me....even though you can pause the game, I just do not like the simultaneous movement and command actions conducted by all my troops, on all my fronts......

What's quite amusing amid all the Paradox bashing when combined with Matrix adoration is the simple fact that Matrix released War In The Pacific in a similar state to HOI.

I don't like HOI and probably won't pick up HOI2 until it's been fixed, whenever that might be, but anyone claiming Paradox haven't produced a good game hasn't played EU or EU2.

BTW, when EU was finished with patching it had an outstanding bug list of about 50 minor bugs. Hardly unfinished as one poster here claimed.

Some liked patch 1.06c, some did not, for myself HOI wasn't good until patch 1.06, but, that was a year and a half later, how would you like to buy a car that isn't complete until a year and a half later? You would return it most likely and never buy from that car dealer again.

This reasoning that all software is flawed and we "SHOULD" buy it that way has got to stop. There's no other product out there we would allow such from and would return it in a heartbeat if faulty or flawed. The problem lies in that somehow, someway the software industry gets away with releasing "faulty, problematic" software without a "regulated" return policy for the consumers. And that's a big reason Paradox and many others get the histories that they have. Now, I can take a simple software issue and live with it until a patch, but, A YEAR AND A HALF LATER?? no way and every one of Paradox's games requires that kind of time frame before they are worthy of purchase.

There's two solutions to defeating the software industry of it's "buy it now, we "MIGHT" fix it later" policies and that is to either not purchase the titles at all or wait until the titles hit "bargain bin" pricing where they do not make a dimes profit off of it and perhaps when their sales are low enough they will take another look at how they market their games. This is the policy I have taken for the last several years now. I no longer "rush" out to buy a newly released product and if I can find it on ebay or amazon.com or any other auction/discount software outlet that is where I will purchase it from now on until there is a "full refund" policy established for newly released software. If they want my "retail dollars" this is what they are going to have to do.

As far a reasoning that with no refund policy it reduces piracy is a load of crap, if someone is going to pirate the game or make a copy and give to their friend, they are going to do it anyway, always. And with high speed internet connections now, software piracy will only grow as more and more games come out in faulty and flawed condition. I do not condone "piracy", I will not "steal" a game, but, I certainly will look for the best deal on buying one now.

As for HOI 2 in general, to me, it's nothing more than HOI 1.07, a few design changes and UI changes, do not make a new game to me, it just makes an incomplete game HOI 1, a little different with a new title and another $40 to $50 price tag for much of the same. That's another thing I am moving away from games that have 2's, 3's, 4's etc. etc. after an origional title. Anything that has a number after the title also makes its way to the "wait for the bargain bin pricing" in a few months.

As far as HOI 2 not being very flawed or require major patching, well hell after nearly two years of playing around with HOI it shouldn't require any patching, it's nothing more than HOI anyway. So, releasing HOI 2 with few bugs or in need of less patching proves nothing to me about Paradox's ways, when they release a complete NEW title with no 2's, III's etc. after it, and requires little or no patching, then I "might" believe Paradox is moving in the right direction. Therefore HOI 2 is a no buy, until bargain bin pricing or perhaps never. Victoria and CK made their way back to my software dealer without question, it certainly helps when you have a close friend that runs a retail software outlet and you can "return" games that are crapola. Unfortunately this is not an advantage for all consumers and it should be.

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

What's quite amusing amid all the Paradox bashing when combined with Matrix adoration is the simple fact that Matrix released War In The Pacific in a similar state to HOI.

I don't like HOI and probably won't pick up HOI2 until it's been fixed, whenever that might be, but anyone claiming Paradox haven't produced a good game hasn't played EU or EU2.

BTW, when EU was finished with patching it had an outstanding bug list of about 50 minor bugs. Hardly unfinished as one poster here claimed.

I didn't get WitP but it does look like there have been a lot of problems "out of the box" (ootb). So that is one game from Matrix with issues vs virtually every game from Paradox with issues ootb. You may be right about what EU finally became but to be honest I gave up on it long before it was "finished". I would also find it hard to believe the WitP manual is anywhere near as bad as the EU manual. Grigsby and company usually do a very good job in that regard.

Paradox deserves their reputatuion for producing crap out of the box. Matrix does not based on WitP alone. And yes I know Matrix is a publisher and until recently Paradox was not but the conclusion is still valid IMO.

I might take issue with someone slagging David Heath directly, but I think I have already made it abundantly clear, David is David, Matrix Games is a company.

I never cut any company any slack if it isn't warranted.

HoI stupid idea right from the beginning.

WitP likely too complex to even consider getting it out the door perfect.

One game comes completely inert day one for many, while the other runs, but has a few glitches.
One game is a parody of WW2, and one perhaps tries to simulate to much.

Now if I couldn't put my finger on a single Matrix Games title that was well worth the cash and a marvel of solid wargaming, chances are I would not visit their forums either.

Steel Panthers Mega Campaigns in addition to several years of free access to one of the best tactical wargames in existence is quite a selling point.
Korsun Pocket is claimed to be one of the best wargames ever. Quite a credential.
I have Battles in Normandy, so Korsun wasn't a fluke.
Highway to the Reich has one of the best real time style designs out there. Models command better than any game I can currently think of.

All of those games have patches. All software has patches. It's what's patched that counts.
An obscure detail that gets missed, is not on par with a game being unstable or inert of just plain inoperative.

And even when you remove bugs glitches and other flubs, fact is, HoI was a bad idea from day one, WitP is perhaps just to dry.
Given a choice though, I would rather be given to much, as opposed to too little in a wargame.

HoI belongs in the same category as Command and Conquer, Axis and Allies, and other games that have nothing in common with a serious wargamers idea of a serious wargame.
It's beer and pretzels all the way, in spite of how much garbage they crammed onto it.

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer


HoI stupid idea right from the beginning.


HoI belongs in the same category as Command and Conquer, Axis and Allies, and other games that have nothing in common with a serious wargamers idea of a serious wargame.

I'd agree with the last bit but HoI wasn't a 'stupid' idea. I really enjoy messing around with the production, research and diplomacy options even more than I do with Civ because at least you're dealing with quasi-real people/products/science. Patching problems aside (and I don't agree that you can compare HoI and WitP on that issue), Paradox screwed the trade and screwed the combat and though these don't make the game unplayable, they make it too unrealistic.

ORIGINAL: elmo3
I didn't get WitP but it does look like there have been a lot of problems "out of the box" (ootb). So that is one game from Matrix with issues vs virtually every game from Paradox with issues ootb. You may be right about what EU finally became but to be honest I gave up on it long before it was "finished". I would also find it hard to believe the WitP manual is anywhere near as bad as the EU manual. Grigsby and company usually do a very good job in that regard.

Paradox deserves their reputatuion for producing crap out of the box. Matrix does not based on WitP alone. And yes I know Matrix is a publisher and until recently Paradox was not but the conclusion is still valid IMO.

All valid points, though how many releases does it take to get a bad reputation? Why should one company be absolved and another derided by the same people?

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
HoI stupid idea right from the beginning.

In your very subjective opinion. Have you actually played the game Les?

WitP likely too complex to even consider getting it out the door perfect.

Paradox appologists will trot the same rubbish out about HOI. In fact, that's probably the most popular excuse any fanboys have when their software company of choice in unable to deliver what they were promised.

One game comes completely inert day one for many, while the other runs, but has a few glitches.
One game is a parody of WW2, and one perhaps tries to simulate to much.

No, WiTP doesn't have few glitches. Until recently it randomly swapped allied leaders onto the Japanese side. A fairly important issue when simulating the war wouldn't you think?

It's not like Bombing the Reich or Battle of Britain were any different. The second of those was never fixed, though fans managed to patch most of the possible holes.

Korsun Pocket is claimed to be one of the best wargames ever. Quite a credential.
I have Battles in Normandy, so Korsun wasn't a fluke.

Are you playing BiN single player? Making sure to set it to computer- to overcome the step replacement bug, or have they fixed it yet? Those three are excellent games, but then again, that's my subjective opinion too, one I also extend to EU. Have you tried that one Les?

All of those games have patches. All software has patches. It's what's patched that counts.
An obscure detail that gets missed, is not on par with a game being unstable or inert of just plain inoperative.

So you are the arbiter on when a bug is bad enough to ruin the game? Seems like you're just inventing reasons to maintain bias to me. That's fine, we all have likes and dislikes, but trying to logically prove what is subjective is inane.

And even when you remove bugs glitches and other flubs, fact is, HoI was a bad idea from day one, WitP is perhaps just to dry.
Given a choice though, I would rather be given to much, as opposed to too little in a wargame.

Have you played either game?

HoI belongs in the same category as Command and Conquer, Axis and Allies, and other games that have nothing in common with a serious wargamers idea of a serious wargame.
It's beer and pretzels all the way, in spite of how much garbage they crammed onto it.

No. HOI is much more than that. Not a good game, but obviously you don't have much idea what it is. BTW, you're a big proponent of Strategic Command: Beer and Pretzels++, so why would you use that label now as an insult?

Well I am actually glad somehow that Dinsdale has a life, hasn't been following me around (like it seems some do) and thus would not have discovered that yes I have played WitP, yes I have played HoI and yes I have played BiN.

Not extensively in any case though I will concede.

HoI had a smell that was sufficiently bad I had little desire to even play it long enough to experience most of what is well known about it.

WitP is a great looking game, might actually be to much game to be realistic for me. Realistic in that I might not have the time to dedicate to a game that detailed turn based or otherwise possibly.

Given a choice of which game I might be interested in pursuing (to the end of following it through it's evolution) I will never be able to generate any interest for HoI.
The game is flaky even if you discount bugs. If it had no bugs at all, its a bad design concept.
Might as well picture playing WitP real time. Now that would be equally stupid, and I would say as much if it was real time as well.

BiN, I have not played it enough to comment yet.

But I am willing to support the predominant view on games generally speaking.
Predominant view on HoI, buggy crap.
Predominant view on Korsun, one of the best wargames ever.
I am thus, not surprised, that even with some bugs that were discovered with Korsun, they likely don't equal the magnitude of bugs in HoI.

Again, I can live with the idea that software just seems cursed to go through year one bug removal.
But some bugs smell of lousy quality control, and not permutations that slipped under the radar.

Generalisations all admittedly.

Beer and pretzels isn't a sin, if that is what was sold.
It's when it is claimed to be more than that, and it proves to be otherwise.

In spite of the games horrendously inadequate AI, Axis and Allies is actually quite fun when humans run all the sides.
Strategic Command is no challenge human vs AI when the player has a lot of games under their belt.
I never play the game human vs AI and expect the challenge to remain long.
Played human vs human though, and the game is actually quite challenging. I prefer hot seat solo myself. I am my hardest opponent

HoI can't be played hotseat solo. Thus the game has no market value at all.
I downloaded the copy I checked out. Didn't make me one bit squeemish to do it either. I have zero interest in buying from Paradox. I was just wanting to silence the people constantly crying that I had never played it.
Now I have.
Barely worth the 50 cent cd I put it on.

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I downloaded the copy I checked out. Didn't make me one bit squeemish to do it either. I have zero interest in buying from Paradox. I was just wanting to silence the people constantly crying that I had never played it.
Now I have.
Barely worth the 50 cent cd I put it on.

I'm not any HoI fan at all, but well....

Stealing it and admitting it publicly?

I have to say that I think you guys are a bit out of line with the intensity of your criticism of Paradox. A visit to the Paradox Interactive Forums tonight shows quite a healthy community supporting their games. Actually, they have quite a few more people online and active than does this forum.

I really can't reconcile the comments that I'm seeing here with the comments and enthusiasm that I see over there.

I originally had trouble getting into HOI as I just couldn't get my handle around some of their concepts. I'm still a bit lost over their convoy system and the manual didn't explain much, but I'm experimenting. I upgraded to version 1.06c and added CORE 9.1 and gave it all another try this morning. It has been a much better experience overall this time.

Like any game, it takes a bit of a committment to master it, and I really just have this feeling that the critics here have not made much of an effort to really get into it and gave up really soon (as I did, to be honest).

I am just grateful that we have companies like Matrix and Paradox that produce a variety of wargames on a variety of subjects and I have no interest at all in putting any of them into the grave with this kind of public criticism. Perhaps it's because I spent years following SPI through their various triumphs and fiascos with their boardgames so I don't expect perfection out of the box. Back in the days of boardgames the "errata sheets" were usually enormous and frequently updated. The paper version of today's "patches". I even remember counter sheets sent out as addendums to correct problems.

If a game can garner significant fan support to generate MODS and enhancements and much discussion, I judge it a success... warts and all. If there has to be an HOI2... HOI3 to get it right, so be it.

Another thing to consider is the need to encourage innovation. I love John Tiller, but he has made a design career out applying the same design concepts to battle after battle after battle. If someone designs something very different (like HOI) we need to give it a chance to develop and blossom. Financially, it's asking too much to expect game companies to provide free copies of subsequent titles like HOI2, just because HOI1 wasn't all that you expected (or Silent Service III, because it's the game you expected Silent Service II to be... and so forth).

I don't want to offend anyone too badly, but I really do not want to read all of the whiney postings that I've seen all over these forums about how "Fanboy Smith" isn't going to play "XYZ" game anymore because of some gripe about the design or a specific bug or an OOB adjustment that they don't agree with... and so on... usually culminating in some form of "I'm taking it off my harddrive and ... I'm never buying another game from XYZ"

I appreciate reading constructive criticisms and enjoy the many debates that go on around here, but spare me these kinds of comments. Too much of what I just read in this specific thread sounded like people with a personal grudge against Paradox who weren't presenting a fair criticism of HOI at all.

The problem is that people read stuff like this and then write off a company or designer or a specific game without ever giving them a chance. I think our hobby deserves better. If we want it to survive and grow, all criticism should be constructive in nature and focused on helping to improve the game and not concentrating on abusing companies and designers.

Just my two cents worth (and I'm picking on a LOT of people in various sections, not just people in this thread so please don't take it too personally).

Actually, they have quite a few more people online and active than does this forum.

I really can't reconcile the comments that I'm seeing here with the comments and enthusiasm that I see over there

The reasoning for community sizes is twofold and Paradox's community size is two fold, about as many complainers (until the biased mods ban them of course, if the total population of complainers was still allowed to speak at Paradox forums you would see a lot more adverse comments about their games, but, they make sure and get rid of those types) about their products as there are "fanbois".

If a game company produces "good/great" quality games, the official forums would be rather small like this one, because the gamers are "playing" the games instead of complaining about them or in the case of Paradox fanbois "defending" them on the official sites.

There's no real need to defend Matrixgames releases, save for the COST of some of their titles, they are unmatched as far as what a true real wargame is created on a computer. Matrixgames makes "wargames". Paradox makes "wannabe wargames", or something undescribeable. I don't see wargame in any of their creations, not even HOI really, because of the unrealism of the game as a whole. When one can take a minor like Brazil and conquer Germany and Italy with them, and very little help from the pitiful AI, it's just not a realistic historical approach to wargaming. More like a Civilization stoppage in time and playing around with some historical beginnings, but, after that, it's just a strategy game of overwhelming the computer AI.

This is not the only site that tells what Paradox games are like "out of the box", go read some Wargamer.com forum postings and then also the reviews on Amazon.com from players and also Gamerankings.com from players and reviewers alike. It's not like this is the number one stop for bashing Paradox games by a long shot. The story of Paradox is riddled across the worldwide web on many forums and review sites.

I, and several others have said, some of their games "after numerous umpteen patches" have been pretty good, EU2 and HOI finally were playable and enjoyable. That still does not make Paradox a quality provider of software games "out of the box" and that is the main issue about them. From EU to CK, every single one of their games has required numerous patches to make them what they "should have been out of the box", not to mention their milking the cow with the PLAT edition of HOI which was nothing more than patch 1.06c and the C.O.R.E mod that both can be downloaded for FREE and a copy of HOI obtained off ebay or amazon.com for less than $10.

I'm waiting now for them to release a gold box edition of EU, EU2, HOI, Victoria & CK all in one package for the low low price of $49.99 LOL

I don't want to offend anyone too badly, but I really do not want to read all of the whiney postings ... because of some gripe about the design

Fair enough. On the other hand, lots of us don't particularly care for whiney postings claiming that this new real-time or continuous-time gaming is the greatest thing since sliced bread and everyone else must be idiots for not accepting it. And that's not just Paradox. I also have HTTR and frankly I just don't play it very much at all because I don't like it. (Sorry about that, Matrix.)

I LIKE turn-based games. I prefer being able to observe, orient, decide, and act. I prefer being able to ponder the situation, make up my mind, take my time making my moves, and then seeing clear combat results I can understand. Watching a bunch of fancy graphics icons dance around each other with fancy gunfire sound effects and then trying to comprehend what exactly is happening so maybe I can click my mouse fast enough to do something different is NOT my idea of wargaming. So pardon me for my "aversion" to this type of gaming. I figure if I and others don't speak up and say something, some game producers might get the idea that the latest "trend" is the way all things must be - and that is wrong.

The original poster asked a question. He got responses. Don't go whining if you don't like the responses. We're all entitled to our opinions, and boy do we all have them. So just accept that there are some valid differences and leave it at that. Game producers need to understand that there ARE different customers with different expectations, so keep on working on different games to accomodate us. [:)]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn
I really can't reconcile the comments that I'm seeing here with the comments and enthusiasm that I see over there.

Paradox lovers & haters fight an enternal war for the souls of unaligned gamers. This age old conflict can flare up on virtually any strategy game forum. [:)]

ORIGINAL: Venom Rising

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I downloaded the copy I checked out. Didn't make me one bit squeemish to do it either. I have zero interest in buying from Paradox. I was just wanting to silence the people constantly crying that I had never played it.
Now I have.
Barely worth the 50 cent cd I put it on.

I'm not any HoI fan at all, but well....

Stealing it and admitting it publicly?

Hehe I can see you don't recognise me (is it possible you don't?).
I am about as rabid a supporter of good wargaming oractices as it gets. I am not always 100% spot on target, but I DO try.

I contributed my time for free (that being summer of 2003 and into the fall) to help bring to the world MC-SE for Steel Panthers.
I was one of two persons that aided David Heath in seeing that the whole team was given a complimentary copy of the Team Edition of the Steel Panthers Generals edition cd as well.
If I had a real job (don't due to being disabled), the idea of my needing any financial aid from David to mail them out would have been a non issue.

So I do indeed pony up for wargaming when I can.
See my link, I LIKE to give away download services for things like the hefty sized Steel Panthers download (which normally is quite free). It costs me bandwidth, but then again, my bandwidth is unlimited, so I am not really losing anything.

But, assuming you might be the only one that doesn't know. The internet is indeed full of places where a person can go and just you know download stuff.
One such place is a well known place called Suprnova (no link offered if ou can't find it, that's not anyone else's problem is it ).
I could name the games that are there, but hmm why don't I do it the easy way, and just say every RTS and shooter titel you can think of. Oh and every other schlock aging title imaginable.

It's not like I am saying anything that everyone doesn't already know (well accept maybe yourself ).

So I downloaded HoI, oh the horror. I denied a company to which hasn't a hope in hell of ever getting a sale from me a sale. Well , hmm look at that sentence. Paradox doesn't have a chance in hell of ever getting a sale out of me.
The only person that benefited out of the experience, was the business that sold me the cds.

Paradox is all of what is wrong with computer wargaming.
They make shoddy games, for fanatics (must be fanatics as I usually throw out games that suck, and go find a good one to replace it).

I applaud Matrix Games for the approach they are taking vis a vis serial numbers and patches.
I can't think of a single wargame that was worth instaling, that has escaped a need for at least some patch work.
If you want the game, expect to need a patch eventually. If you want to get the patch, expect to have bought it honestly.
Best form of protection I have seen yet.

Certainly out does that computer mangling Starforce which is a death sentence to sales from me. I won't touch a game that ever had anything to do with it. Not even if the person promises it was cracked (I'm not that trusting or desperate for the game).

What is funny, is the only good wargames out there, are generally not available for download.
That is an interesting detail.
And yes I KNOW you can eventually find aaaaaanything if you hunt hard enough.
But the truth is, its the garbage that generally occupies the sites that is being given away.
It shows that old style wargamers, basically won't "give away" their old style wargames.
Get out there and buy it being the preferred approach.

I like that.

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

I denied a company to which hasn't a hope in hell of ever getting a sale from me a sale. Well , hmm look at that sentence. Paradox doesn't have a chance in hell of ever getting a sale out of me.

That is hardly a good excuse for theft. [&:] I do not see how a refusal to purchase products from a company equates to a right to steal from them.

Who said it was an excuse?

I am making known the already known.

They are out there, they are all out there (the RTS and FPS variety).
I didn't put them out there, and I don't really care that they are out there (all the RTS and FPS crud).

It is an indictment of the fans of those sorts of games though, that they are so readily available.

I guess the average RTS and FPS fan doesn't care squat for the companies making their games.

And that is the point.

I haven't downloaded any of that crud (other than the HoI example) because crud well you know, its crud.

I had that game off the hard drive 5 minutes after setting to rest once and for all in my mind, yes it's crud.
It was valueless free let alone full price or found linering in a junk bin.

This makes for a funny contrast though.

Posted by Gasbag.

"The damn game occaisionally crashes to desktop during combat sequences. Also during game saving the audio skips ( like a broken record ). The tutorial is the worst written that I've ever seen. I've got a good mind to sue the company for the cost of the game. If this is the quality of product that Matrix turns out then I won't be buying any more.
P.S. I've got the f#@#ing thing patched to 2.30, have more than enough RAM (512) to run it & have updated my video card ( BFG Nividia Geforce FX 5500 256 MB ) drivers."

Now if that was his response to UV, a game with I think a much better level of acceptance, I wonder if he would go postal if he had bought a day one copy of HoI