Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Marc

Junichi Sasai

is which one??? [:'(]

middle

ORIGINAL: Marc

middle

correct!!! [:)]

and the last guy???

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: Marc

middle

correct!!! [:)]

and the last guy???

What about Sadao Uehara?

ORIGINAL: Marc

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: Marc

middle

correct!!! [:)]

and the last guy???

What about Sadao Uehara?

incorrect [:)]

ORIGINAL: Jaws43

http://www.acepilots.com/misc_hartmann.html

352 alone[;)]

During the Battle of Britain, the official kill returns up to October 7, 1940 showed the Luftwaffe claimed 3058 British aircraft against 915 actually lost an exaggeration of 3.34x; by contrast, the RAF claimed 2698 against 1733 Luftwaffe actually lost (1.56x exaggeration).

Doesn't matter? Well it was enough for the Luftwaffe to believe they had a victory kill ratio of 1.76:1 when they had suffered a DEFEAT of 1:1.89.

The RAF had the ability to look at evidence on the ground, but a significant problem for the Germans was they did NOT have an Intelligence Officer at squadron command to verify the pilots claims immediately after combat, so the Luft squadron command simply passed on his pilots claims to Gruppen intelligence. It is difficult to be accurate in a crowded battle with multiple nits on the same plane - even the RAF had to caution eight pilots for claiming the same German bomber on the same day - but all pilots tend to overclaim and if you dont have someone checking their claims you get absurd scores. Which can give you the wrong picture and cost you the Battle!

Hartmann fought Russians (abysmal quality of pilots) but I think his claims still have to be adjusted.

Off topic: I don’t know why in WitP Russians get 55 for replacements, it should be something around 40 (Russian pilots had very short training programs from 1month in 1941 to 5-6 in 1945).

Takatsuka???

ORIGINAL: Marc

Takatsuka???

YOU ARE CORRECT SIR!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!! [:D] [&o]

These five members of the Lae Wing accounted for at least 223 kills by wars end, true figures are probably higher:

Name / Kills

Takatsuka / 13
Sasai / 27
Ota / 34
Sakai / 62
Nishizawa / 87

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: Marc

middle

correct!!! [:)]

and the last guy???

From Saburo Sakais Samurai:
Top row from left:
Takatsuka, Sasai and Sakai
On their knees:
Ota and Nishizawara

From Finnish edition:

Werner Södeström osakeyhtiön kirjapainossa 1958

Pertsajakilu

PS. It's first quality condition, found it in antiqvarium. Price was 13€.
Hopefully I will find Pierre Clostermans Grand Circus.

ORIGINAL: testarossa


Hartmann fought Russians (abysmal quality of pilots) but I think his claims still have to be adjusted.

Common bullshit after first two or three year of war. Many ( German ) top aces in eastern fron were shot down several times by Russian pilots but managed to survive ( or not ).

Russian front aerial war was totally different form ETO. They were low level aerial fights without massive aerial formations. Air war over Europe was meat grinder when eastern front was much smaller aerial fights ( like WW1 dogfights ) and there were much higher propablity to survive. Helmut Lipfert who had over 200 victories told that he had never survived in west because it was war of masses. There were all the time somebody after you who you coudn't see because there were too much planes in air same time. He had a high recard of Soviet pilots and was shot himself down five times by Russians.

I don't doubt that Allied pilots could have achieved same kind o f records agains Germans if there have been enough targets and fewer Allied pilots ( and tour of duty of whole war ).

Pertsajakilu

There is no doubt that Russians had fine pilots (after they survived first missions), Kozhedub had 67 confirmed kills per 120 combat missions. Now about those who didn’t survive the “combat” training.

Losses of Russian air force pilots (officers only) during WW2 (pilots KIA):

Fighters 11,874
Close support 7837
Bombers 6613
Recon 587
Aux 689
Total 27600

These are for the officer corp pilots losses only, there is no data for sergeants and crew losses). Actual number of aircraft lost is higher as some sources claim around 74,000 (based on the production numbers).

Considering the “low” intensity of the air war at the east, as you claim, doesn’t it look like something is wrong with the pilots’ training?

ORIGINAL: pertsajakilu

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: Marc

middle

correct!!! [:)]

and the last guy???

From Saburo Sakais Samurai:
Top row from left:
Takatsuka, Sasai and Sakai
On their knees:
Ota and Nishizawara

From Finnish edition:

Werner Södeström osakeyhtiön kirjapainossa 1958

Pertsajakilu

PS. It's first quality condition, found it in antiqvarium. Price was 13€.
Hopefully I will find Pierre Clostermans Grand Circus.

If you can find the American Ballentine books version of Pierre Closterman's book,it was called "The Big Show"..I had a copy from the mid 50's..

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: pertsajakilu

ORIGINAL: Tanaka



correct!!! [:)]

and the last guy???

From Saburo Sakais Samurai:
Top row from left:
Takatsuka, Sasai and Sakai
On their knees:
Ota and Nishizawara

From Finnish edition:

Werner Södeström osakeyhtiön kirjapainossa 1958

Pertsajakilu

PS. It's first quality condition, found it in antiqvarium. Price was 13€.
Hopefully I will find Pierre Clostermans Grand Circus.

If you can find the American Ballentine books version of Pierre Closterman's book,it was called "The Big Show"..I had a copy from the mid 50's..

um what are u guys talking about here??? whats the book about??? [&:]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: pertsajakilu



From Saburo Sakais Samurai:
Top row from left:
Takatsuka, Sasai and Sakai
On their knees:
Ota and Nishizawara

From Finnish edition:

Werner Södeström osakeyhtiön kirjapainossa 1958

Pertsajakilu

PS. It's first quality condition, found it in antiqvarium. Price was 13€.
Hopefully I will find Pierre Clostermans Grand Circus.

If you can find the American Ballentine books version of Pierre Closterman's book,it was called "The Big Show"..I had a copy from the mid 50's..

um what are u guys talking about here??? whats the book about??? [&:]

Completely off topic Tanaka,but Pierre Clostermann was the highest scoring French ace of WW2,joined the RAF after France fell and later wrote a book about those exploits.Very informative..
Ended the war flyng a Hawker Tempest,nearly as big as a P-47 and as agile as a Spitfire..
BTW,I have read over the years of the European version of the book being called other than what it was called in the States,("The Big Show")..

my 2 cents.. As we all know, the USN/USMC and to a slightly lesser degree the USAAF, rotated units in and out of combat. So, that lessened their times over the front lines. Also, there was a constant movement of some top pilots from their units to the home front to pass on the lessons from the front line- which to a large degree is the reason why the pilot experience levels for the “rookies” increase as the war progresses, IMHO. The IJN/IJA kept there pilots on the front line till shot down, rotated out with sickness, or were planeless and bye-passed by the allies island hopping campaign.

I’m of the opinion that if the Americans didn’t rotate there units, not only would the VMF-214’s and VF-17’s of the world have a higher kill total, but also more of there aces would have possibly not survived the war. And keep in mind you can only shoot down planes IF the enemy still has planes/pilots to put up. Eric B’s Fire in the Sky is a good source.