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ORIGINAL: Becket

Special winter units would not constitute any major component of the Soviet army in any event. Are you referring to the troops participating in the Petsamo operation?

I was referring to that unit in the Red army that was specifically designed to fight in winter conditions. They were called the "Siberian front", composed of 40 or so divisions. They werent used against the Germans at first cause they were expecting a Japanese attack. Anyways I'm pretty sure they're the ones that led the first winter offensive.

ORIGINAL: riley555

ORIGINAL: Becket

Special winter units would not constitute any major component of the Soviet army in any event. Are you referring to the troops participating in the Petsamo operation?

I was referring to that unit in the Red army that was specifically designed to fight in winter conditions. They were called the "Siberian front", composed of 40 or so divisions. They werent used against the Germans at first cause they were expecting a Japanese attack. Anyways I'm pretty sure they're the ones that led the first winter offensive.

Do you have any cites for the proposition that the Siberians divisions were specialized units in a way that the western divisions were not? This is not information I have seen before. That the Siberians were involved in the 41-42 counterattacks is not disputed, but there is no correlation to that and their cold weather skills (that I have ever heard of). The correlation is to the need for personnel.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, I simply do not recall Glantz or Erikson dwelling on this particular point.

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey

name me an instance when a corps size force was ever completely eliminated, in history, to the final....last man...no one escapes?

None. I'm just saying when an enemies air superiority can destroy hundreds of armored cars and tanks in one day with almost no air losses to himself it's a very unforgiving situation. And this should remain the case in the game as it is in real life.

Well Becket I believe they were much better in winter conditions than most of the other divisions, and devoted more time and energy into the training of it.

ORIGINAL: riley555

Well Becket I believe they were much better in winter conditions than most of the other divisions, and devoted more time and energy into the training of it.

I'm afraid in the absence of evidence I'll have to disagree. At best they were just from a cold area. Glantz's excellent "When Titans Clashed" and Erickson's two-volume work (Road to Stalingrad and Road to Berlin) discuss the use of Siberian reinforcements, Glantz's discussion of the training of the Petsamo divisions, but make no reference to any specialization for winter combat (compare: Glantz's discussion of the preparation & training for the Petsamo invasion). Recall that most of the Central and Northern SU is quite cold & snowy in winter. Also note that Zhukov felt no compulsion to maintain the integrity of those divisions (see: orders in 1942 to disperse eastern ethnicity soldiers among all Operation Mars units).

Again, they were simply manpower that was available after spies in Japan reported that the Japanese were in no position to attack. That the Soviet troops as a whole were better prepared and trained to fight in Winter than the Germans is indisuptable, as would be proven not on in 41, but in subsequent winters.

Note: I suspect the place to look for the definitive answer will be Glantz's new title, Colossus Reborn, the follow-on work to Stumbling Colossus. Whereas the latter work focused on the sorry state of the Red Army on June 22, 1941, the new work focused on how it was rebuilt in the months that followed. Unfortunately, I don't yet have my copy....

Second note: Here's what Rokossovsky had to say regarding the Siberian reinforcements received by 16th Army at the Battle of Moscow: "We were greatly cheered by the arrival of the 78th Infantry Division from Siberia, led by that fine commander Colonel Afanasy Beloborodov. It was made up mainly of Siberians, and even among our gallant soldiers Siberians have always been distinguished for their valour. The division was fully manned and supplied according to the wartime tables of organisation and equipment." (Rokossovsky, "A Soldier's Duty", Progress Publishers, Moscow 1970, pg. 71.) He then compared the division to the underequipped and undersupplied tank brigades and tank division they received at the same time.

Rokossovsky makes no mention of any specialization of this unit, which was fully integrated into 16th Army. Instead, he notes their reputation for valour, and, in the emphasized portion, that they were a standard rifle division.

Back to the main reason for your question, though: the scale of the game is such that representation of specialized & elite units is not warranted. The Germans, Soviets, and to a lesser extent the Japanese all fielded elite units that were lavishly trained and equipped compared to standard units (the German Waffen-SS units and the Soviet Guards units). The scale of the game is too large for these units to be represented, let alone other types of units that were far less numerous (such as German & US mountain & alpine units, US rangers, etc.).

ORIGINAL: Becket

Second note: Here's what Rokossovsky had to say regarding the Siberian reinforcements received by 16th Army at the Battle of Moscow: "We were greatly cheered by the arrival of the 78th Infantry Division from Siberia, led by that fine commander Colonel Afanasy Beloborodov. It was made up mainly of Siberians, and even among our gallant soldiers Siberians have always been distinguished for their valour. The division was fully manned and supplied according to the wartime tables of organisation and equipment." (Rokossovsky, "A Soldier's Duty", Progress Publishers, Moscow 1970, pg. 71.) He then compared the division to the underequipped and undersupplied tank brigades and tank division they received at the same time.

Becket quoting his hero Rokosovski, always makes me feel warmth and love radiating from those words... [:D][:D]

O.

My sig should now give you unending pleasure, then. [:'(]