Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Halsey

So you put them in 200 plane TF's and keep them together. What's the difference?
The Allies don't even have this option till 44. GG nonsense.[:D]

It's probably actually a rule the IJN into a false sense of security, to make it seem as though 6 CV's CAP can stop Corsairs, and with that the IJN CV's are much easier to pin down if they're all together.

That more or less clears up part of my other post, and sounds more reasonable. I guess you did tell me that at first you reacted to my initial move to Baker with just two CVs, didn't you?

Yup, just 2 but the others weren't too far away at the time so if your carriers had tried to engage my 2 CVs, you just might have had a very nasty surprise.

I don't like to remove KB too far from what I consider the main theater, the South and Central Pacific because that's where the US carriers are going to show sooner or later. And by having 2 groups I can counter surface or carrier raids quicker but its also taking a chance that the smaller group will attempt to take something on they should leave well enough alone. I pretty much consider KB as an anti-CV force. I don't see the need to use them to attack land when there is plenty of LBA. Too much chance of a lucky hit or decimation of the airwing and I can't afford that.

Mini-KB is more than enough to patrol the Burma/SRA theaters given the miniscule airwings the Brits have so I don't see a reason to send KB there unless the US decides to send theirs.

Chez

Hard to keep the Allies from learning where your carriers are so long as their recons can reach you.

As to the general question, my general advice is you have to gauge the relative skill of the Japanese v. the Allied commander. If you believe Japan has the better, then splitting the KB is more feasible. If the Allied is the better, I recommend (on hard-earned personal experience) leaving KB intact.

General question for splitters/nonsplitters -- do you also split off the BBs from the CV TF, to create the improved speed/reaction TF? Or do you leave them there for more punch, AA, counter ability to fend off enemy LB raids or lucky SC TFs?

ORIGINAL: BraveHome

Hard to keep the Allies from learning where your carriers are so long as their recons can reach you.

As to the general question, my general advice is you have to gauge the relative skill of the Japanese v. the Allied commander. If you believe Japan has the better, then splitting the KB is more feasible. If the Allied is the better, I recommend (on hard-earned personal experience) leaving KB intact.

General question for splitters/nonsplitters -- do you also split off the BBs from the CV TF, to create the improved speed/reaction TF? Or do you leave them there for more punch, AA, counter ability to fend off enemy LB raids or lucky SC TFs?

Don't know about the recon bit. In my game KB normally shows up on at least the first search as AKs and such. Now it stands to reason most of the time that the Japanese player will not be sailing AKs in certain waters, so I just assume it's KB out looking for trouble and react accordingly.

I've been stung (crushed is more like it) twice in my game with Chez now due to my reliance on the accuracy of naval search. In all I believe it's cost me almost 40 AKs for no better reason than I'm a dumb commander. If I were you I wouldn't put all that much stock in your naval search reports. I certainly wouldn't bet the ranch on one of them. (anymoreheadded)

40 AKs? You got off light. In my first PBEM my ignorance of game mechanics cost me half of KB! The other half has been successful in supporting operations in the Indian Ocean. However it is often spotted in the OPS reports for what it is....

I like MO's plan. [:D]

Just remember that the fear of KB is far more effective and far reaching than KB itself. Swashbuckling around the Pacific only tells the Allies where you are. There is little need for KB between PH and Java. Once you go for Java, you will need it for airfield reduction.

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Why would you want to split it up?
There's no penalty like the Allied CV TF's have penalizing them.[;)]

I take the KB and the 2 CVLs and make 2 TFs out of them. 1 is in or around Kwaj at all times, the other is doing my bidding elsewhere. Once the DEI is secure, both squadrons operate in roughly the same area.

According to the air coordination rules on page 130 Japs are the same as Allied 1944 for air strike coordination:

#AC > 200 + rnd(200).

KB alone = 414 AC (meaning automatic no coordinated strikes)
My way = 1 group of 237 and 1 group of 255. Meaning a 81.5% chance of coordination on group 1 and a 72.5% on the 2nd group (plus or minus a fraction of a percent for you nit-pickers).

ORIGINAL: 33Vyper

split split split you cant be everywhere at once but early on you can afford to split up the death star and beat the crap outta all those fleeing allied merchies

I like 2CV/1CVL combinations using the CVL fighters set to 100% cap.

I split it into 4 and 2 splitting the "kakus" off from the other 4 main CV.

With 4 operating around Phillipines, the Shokaku and Zuikaku were operating South and East of kwajalen..

Allied AI sent in the 3 Carriers 2 in one fleet in other, I sunk the Lex... lost the Shokaku, damaged the "E"

I saw the E and Sara retire to noumea via sub and recon... and also sighted Yorktown on a south west bearing past johnson... I brought over the 4 I had split off plus added 2 CVL and caught the yorktown.. so 2 allied sunk..

Then did a run in on noumea and bombed the E and Sara in port

I now in march 1942 have sunk the E, Yoktown, sara, lex and taken Noumea, been using the rebuilt KB around noumea sinking ALOT of merchies

[:D][:D][:D]

If I had kept KB together I think I'd not have lost Shokaku...
and likely have sunk the E,Lex and Sara and later Yorktown..

If I had kept KB together I think I'd not have lost Shokaku...
and likely have sunk the E,Lex and Sara and later Yorktown..

If you had kept the KB together the AI wouldnt have come out. The AI cheats [;)]

General question for splitters/nonsplitters -- do you also split off the BBs from the CV TF, to create the improved speed/reaction TF? Or do you leave them there for more punch, AA, counter ability to fend off enemy LB raids or lucky SC TFs?

I definitely try to leave a fast BB in a CV TF. With any luck, it will draw off some of the attacks on the carrier and it is much more able to withstand a 500lb bomb than the CV.

Chez

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

General question for splitters/nonsplitters -- do you also split off the BBs from the CV TF, to create the improved speed/reaction TF? Or do you leave them there for more punch, AA, counter ability to fend off enemy LB raids or lucky SC TFs?

I definitely try to leave a fast BB in a CV TF. With any luck, it will draw off some of the attacks on the carrier and it is much more able to withstand a 500lb bomb than the CV.

Chez

If you are defending against a Japanese incursion for example and you have your CVs patrolling for just such an occurance, why not include a couple old BBs with each single CV TF? Speed is not such an issue if you are in friendly territory as the bad guys must come to you, the BBs have massive AA capability even in mid 42, have a large durability rating so are sure to draw some attackers away from your carrier, and are robust enough to sustain a few torpedo hits and countless bombs.

Hard to keep the Allies from learning where your carriers are so long as their recons can reach you.

Show one, hide the other just out of range of recon. And if the Allied player gets froggy, hammer and anvil time. Certainly you can't always avoid detection. That pesky little submarine may have seen you but the whole idea though is to not let the US player know where the other TF is until you decide to show it, either there or halfway round the world.

The JAP player needs to stay unpredictable with KB. Too far away from the action and they might as well already be sunk for all the good they are going to do. Put them near where you think the main axis of attack is going to come from. If the Allied player knows they are there, he will be a little more cautious, possibly buying the Jap player more time. If he doesn't know where they are, he had better be cautious. However, if he knows they are in the SRA or IO, no need to worry.

Chez

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

General question for splitters/nonsplitters -- do you also split off the BBs from the CV TF, to create the improved speed/reaction TF? Or do you leave them there for more punch, AA, counter ability to fend off enemy LB raids or lucky SC TFs?

I definitely try to leave a fast BB in a CV TF. With any luck, it will draw off some of the attacks on the carrier and it is much more able to withstand a 500lb bomb than the CV.

Chez

If you are defending against a Japanese incursion for example and you have your CVs patrolling for just such an occurance, why not include a couple old BBs with each single CV TF? Speed is not such an issue if you are in friendly territory as the bad guys must come to you, the BBs have massive AA capability even in mid 42, have a large durability rating so are sure to draw some attackers away from your carrier, and are robust enough to sustain a few torpedo hits and countless bombs.

Chez,

I agree with your thinking.

Ron,

I agree with your thinking.

Me,

I wish I had been thinking.... [8|]

Split them so you have 2 groups as in Feb or March something will need a refit then you always have 2/3 carriers at 0 sys damage.

This sounds good, but from what I've seen in the game so far is that CV TF's have a built in cloaking device. They usually won't be spotted until they are right up close and personal.[:D]

Another part of the game mechanics more than likely.

If you are defending against a Japanese incursion for example and you have your CVs patrolling for just such an occurance, why not include a couple old BBs with each single CV TF? Speed is not such an issue if you are in friendly territory as the bad guys must come to you, the BBs have massive AA capability even in mid 42, have a large durability rating so are sure to draw some attackers away from your carrier, and are robust enough to sustain a few torpedo hits and countless bombs.

Unfortunately, I'm the Jap in my PBEM and the Jap BBs don't have that great an AA until the begin upgrading much later. Took 'em awhile to learn to increase the AA. But having a fast BB (not Yamato) with them does help as a bomb magnet.

Chez

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

If I had kept KB together I think I'd not have lost Shokaku...
and likely have sunk the E,Lex and Sara and later Yorktown..

If you had kept the KB together the AI wouldnt have come out. The AI cheats [;)]

I like how this AI cheats... it sent hornet down twards noumea (japanese own) and Suva.. So Hornet joins the "E", Yorktown, Lex, and Sara at bottom.

And due to a bug the allied AI thinks noumeas an allied port.. (cant disband ships in it without japanese ships taken by computer and sent on allied missions!) Seems its sending Ak's, ap's and stuff to noumea still.. where 3 CV and 2 CVL in a Smaller KB now (lost one of the kakus and have 2 Cv repairing)

Yup i like how Ai cheats

[:'(][:'(]

I usually operate my carriers in three groups, but I add Zuiho, Shoho, Ryujo, Chitose, Mizuho, and Chiyoda to the equation. The biggest risk to my carriers is a carrier group I have not spotted yet, or an attack from a nasty sub. So, I keep a CS with my carrier groups and load them with E7K2's for Naval Search/ASW. If you look at TF leaders for Japan, you really do not want more than 3 or 4 groups, because there are about 3 or 4 good carrier commanders. Capt Abe?, Adm Nagumo, Adm Yamaguchi, and some other dude are the top 4 iirc, and then there is a big dropoff.

No one mentioned the CS units. I personally like to pair them with the slower CV's (Akagi, Kaga, Junyo, etc), where their search planes can make a difference. That keeps you from having to put any Kates on NavSearch, and also frees up an AA escort spot from a CA that can be better employed elsewhere.

I'd love to hear other ideas on how best to use them....I've thought about loading them with Rufe's, but against any serious air opposition that's not really worthwhile anyway. The only other units they would run with are BB's, because you don't want to slow cruisers down. Seems a waste to just park them in port like an AV.