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I gone through the penetration and armor values using Lorrin Bird and Robert Livingstons WW2Ballistics, Armor and gunnery. This book is absolutely THE SOURCE for data on armor and penetration effectiveness. Liorrin and Robert are recognized as two of teh leading figures in teh this area and have spent 15 years researching and cross referencing the data in the book. Unfortunately it does not cover AT rifles...

AT rifles have had their range cut down in the new OOBs, and in some cases the pen adjusted downwaards a bit becasue the T/D function was overrating them a fair bit.

Now as to the 2 lber, the problem with it early on was its use of uncapped AP against face hardened German armor. The rounds tended to shatter on impact. Thanks to the Data in Robert and Lorrins book ad their kind assistence, COmbat Leader will be able to portray such important idiosyncricies.

IT is beyond SP, but in the new OObs the effect of the face hardedned armor is hinted at, though compromise was necessary. THe 2lber was backed off to 59mm pen in teh early model and the front fo teh PzIIIh increased to 69 to account for the combination of 32mm super face hardened plate over a 30mm face hardened plate.

THe Boyes ATR in its present state can do suspension dmaage to PZIIes but can't penetrate them frontally. It can hit a vision slit but that is remote beyond 3 hexes and a 15% chance inside 3...any kind of angle will prevent even that...

Now the crew can bail from a nonpenetrating hit...or when teh suspension is damaged, but Boyes ATRs with 26 pen (that an maybe get to 29 with a khamsin behind it...can't go through the 30@21egrees (about 35mm effective) front armor. I tried it and out side of vulnerable location no pens in over 100 tries...check your tank toughness setting...

I have to echo Paul's statements. The ATR's effectiveness has been significantly reduced from earlier versions of the game. One thing to remember is that they can still be devastating to lightly armoured vehicles. The early Panzers, up to and including the Pz IV's were still vulnerable to these weapons and vehicles such as Halftracks and armoured cars were particularly suceptible to destruction from ATR's. One thing that is not modeled is the effect of firing such weapons. The Boyes ATR was known to dislocate the firer's shoulder and weapons such as the 20mm ATR's could be considered just as unpleasant to fire.

The problem with the 2pounder guns is not that they weren't good Anti-tank guns. Their relative caliber compared to the German weapons is 40mm, so they should be about as effective as the German 37mm guns. The problem they encountered was two-fold. First as Paul explained, was the quality of the AP rounds they were supplied with. The second was they fact that they were never supplied with HE rounds and so were regularly overrun by infantry.

I have to agree with Paul and Mike T. on the point of this thread (ATR penetration). ATR's seem rather less effective than they used to be. Watching the AI take out later model PzIII's (from the side mind you) at ranges of 4+ hexes regularly with PTRD's was quite a sobering experience in previous mods of the game. Now they are nowhere near as nasty...
As far as some of the other points raised in this thread go:
Colonel von Blitz: While I am no metallurgist at all, I can only report my admittedly arbitrary observation: the engine block still had the cylinders in it, and it was 100m away. Cast iron or no the round went through the whole thing, i.e. about 18cm of cast iron plus whatever pistons are made of and went on to strike and make a 5 odd cm deep crater in the rockface of a pyrite quarry some 20m behind the target. I obviously impress too easily! Current (at the time) manufacture 7.62NATO AP (M61) failed to penetrate at all.
Mike T: I've heard the horror stories about dislocated shoulders et al. I can only say they have to be mythological! The Boys rifle weighs a shade over 16kg (36lb), has a reasonably effective muzzle brake, a huge recoil pad on the butt and recoils in a cradle against a buffer spring... The recoil while very heavy, was by no means unpleasant (I wouldn't be mad enough to rapid fire it though). We fed the beast a total of some 20rds, people getting one shot each except for the bloke who owned it who put through 2. He was 65 years old and would have weighed in at about 75kg (i.e. not a big bloke by any means).
No one was injured and I think we all wanted another go! What I do remember was that it had a ferocious muzzle blast and was LOUD. I had earmuffs on and it still sounded like a .303 going off *without* hearing protection...
Anyway, enough rambling off topic. I'll shut up now.

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
Now as to the 2 lber, the problem with it early on was its use of uncapped AP against face hardened German armor. The rounds tended to shatter on impact. Thanks to the Data in Robert and Lorrins book ad their kind assistence, COmbat Leader will be able to portray such important idiosyncricies.

Paul, I was wondering, I always see the uncapped AP round for the 2lber being reffered as used early on. Is there a date at which the British stopped producing this uncapped round? I know it would take time to filter down to the troops, but I was looking to get a handle on a time frame.

For once, I'm going to have to disagree with Paul. Several different folks on this thread have produced evidence that ATRs, specifically the Boys, are overrated, particularly at ranges over 10 hexes (500M). But for me, the real issue to wave the flag on is accuracy. I find hard to believe that an iron-sighted weapon, mounted on a monopod/bipod can consistently hit small moving targets (250/251 1/2tracks aren't the largest vehicles around) out to 600M or more.

I've carefully read all the different posts and still come to the conclusion that the 2pdr and AT rifle weapons in the game are performing beyond historical expectations given the research material.
We can't please evryone, I agree but I could please myself, no pun intended, if someone will tell me how I can adjust my units in the OOB. Or is that just asking for trouble in terms of programming or ruining files/corruption? I'm not a computer guru and that's why I rely on Matrix to address these issues.
In the end, I go with their decisions. I just don't go easily like most old soldiers. One more look please, the concensus is that these weapons and the Russian and other AT rifles ARE TOO GOOD. The 2pdr AT gun is also TOO GOOD compared to historical results.
Having a great time though!

AT Rifles

Originally posted by gdpsnake:
I've carefully read all the different posts and still come to the conclusion that the 2pdr and AT rifle weapons in the game are performing beyond historical expectations given the research material.

One problem may be not the penetration values but the fact that with the v5.2 OOBs all(*) AT rifles are rated with warhead size 2, no matter if they are 7.92, 14 or 20mm .

'Normal' weapons <20mm are rated with warhead size '1', though.

And I found that warhead size makes a great difference in killing ability (see thread http://www.matrixgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=006614 ) .

With warhead size '1' the Polish AT rifle (7,92mm) gives historically correct results - you can put hole next to hole into the target, but it keeps rolling on ...
with size '2' early war tanks will brew much to easy..

(*) Strange is, that this was seemingly overlooked in some OOBs .. dunno which now, would have to look it up, though.

Paul: 'special vulnarablity' ??
From what you wrote I would think that these 'vulnerable location hit' things should occure only within 3 hexes or less, and after that only _very_ seldom ?
Had a Sov. Sniper kill a IJA Tankette Type 92 with a turret side hit (armor 6) at 14 hexes (max. visibility) while shooting ~30° from the right.
From what I understand now this shouldn't be possible, right?
Told WBW on the Chat about that, but never heard anything again ?

Thanks,
A.

One problem may be not the penetration values but the fact that with the v5.2 OOBs all(*) AT rifles are rated with warhead size 2, no matter if they are 7.92, 14 or 20mm.

Sounds reasoable to me. The funny thing is I read one of the MCNA documents last night about AT rifles; it basically suggests that they were of little use except to damage vehicles, not to knock them out.

Yet ... I don't know how many of my armoured cars and halftracks have exploded when hit by one of these things ...

Arralen:the "feature/bug" that allowed small arms to penetrate small amounts of armor has gone away as of version 5.2 so its once again imposssible for snipers (or MGs) to destroy fully armored vehicles - even with "vulnrable location" hits. They can get into open top ones though. It takes a long time to go through all the changes all various hnds involved in the OOB process have made. I think I fixed this in teh new v7 OOBS - I will have to check... Still even with size 1 the 7.92 caliber rouns get some extra oomph that I has tried to take away. I have not seen a small arms penetration in any v6 or v7 testing.

Grumble: What is there to disagree with, I indicated that the ATRs were being reduceed in effectiveness in v7?? Rifle match shooters can put a rifle round in a 1m circle at 600 yards 90% of the time from prone position with no support. Accuracy is underrated if anything, since most of these are semiautomatic weapons and each "shot" is more than one bullet. Recoil is bad, but to a trained shooter recoil increases the set-up time for the NEXT shot, it has little effect on the current shot. Also at that range there is not much relative motion, especially if they are generally comming toward you.

I've been really busy lately at a great variety of things, but the ATRs ARE being reduced in effectiveness, at this point rankly its hard to remember what all has been changed

Also note that most vehicles in the game generally "brew up" after taking enough damage when they are really "heavily damaged". So the documents are correct and extensive play bears that out. But lucky hits do occur and poor capability does not mean NO capability!!

Also note that the armored skirts aded to German vehicles were originally desinged to provide flank protection AGAINST ATRS!! many of which (the Russian varieties in particular) could penetrate the 20 - 30mm flank armor of early German tanks at close range. The Boyes was not one of the ones realy worried about, but it did have its moments.) This resulted in the round tumbling and shattering on the thicker armor behind. THe fact at they also helped against shaped charge weapons was discovered after teh fact and caused them to be used on later model tanks, but their origin was in response to early vulnerability to ATR's

PS to change something in teh OOBs just use the editor provided (spwaweditor.exe I think its called in teh main folder), go to the weapons button of the country of your choice and change the data. Can't guarentee bad things won't happen (usually things like "inappropriate" sounds or graphics that are hard coded to certain ranges of values) but generally they don't affect game play. Experimenting with it is easy...just remember to back up your original set into the OOB folder for safe keeping.

[ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]

?? Rifle match shooters can put a rifle round in a 1m circle at 600 yards 90% of the time from prone position with no support. Accuracy is underrated if anything, since most of these are semiautomatic weapons and each "shot" is more than one bullet.

My final point and then I'll shut up and let Paul get back to work
We aren't talking match shooters here. These are semiautomatic, iron-sights weapons, being fired under combat conditions-fear, physical fatigue, dust/haze/WIND. Consider that a trunnioned (therefore relatively fixed) larger caliber weapon, with a telescopic sighting system have difficulty achieving this level of accuracy (thinking 20mm-37mm here); that's my contention.
Off my soapbox for the weekend.

Thanks for fixing the ATR's. A Boys ATR just sank my R-Boat!

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
Arralen:the "feature/bug" that allowed small arms to penetrate small amounts of armor has gone away as of version 5.2 so its once again imposssible for snipers (or MGs) to destroy fully armored vehicles - even with "vulnrable location" hits. They can get into open top ones though. It takes a long time to go through all the changes all various hnds involved in the OOB process have made. I think I fixed this in teh new v7 OOBS - I will have to check... Still even with size 1 the 7.92 caliber rouns get some extra oomph that I has tried to take away. I have not seen a small arms penetration in any v6 or v7 testing.

???
I have installed v5.01 and patched all the way up to 6.1 .. and my OOBs say v5.2 still - something gone wrong here? (no, I don't have a nested SPWAW folder !)

Had this 'vulnerable loc.' kill (which I would call a feature, not a bug, if it would happen under logical circumstances) with game version 6.1 (but OOB vers. 5.2) - tankette got hit, brew up and left no survivors !?!

I totally agree with you that the danger from those AT rifles doesn't come from the total punch that they deliver (neglectible) but their ability to strike the tank where it hurts most (driver, commander, ammo).

And I have seen men hit half-men-sized targets at 800m (880y.) with open sights (G3) with 50% of shots, firing single-shot rapidly from prone position ...

A.

Thanks for fixing the ATR's. A Boys ATR just sank my R-Boat!

LOL ... you have to admit, that's funny ...

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
PS to change something in teh OOBs just use the editor provided (spwaweditor.exe I think its called in teh main folder), go to the weapons button of the country of your choice and change the data. Can't guarentee bad things won't happen (usually things like "inappropriate" sounds or graphics that are hard coded to certain ranges of values) but generally they don't affect game play. Experimenting with it is easy...just remember to back up your original set into the OOB folder for safe keeping.

[ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]

Paul, perhaps some of the messages asking how to change the oobs are there since the simple to use editor that showed up with the early versions is no longer in the 5.01 distribution.

I am referring to the file oobeditor.exe, it is simple to use, and misuse. I could use it without docs. The editor that is there now I don't want to use, so I went back and copied oobeditor from my 4.3b backup set.
thanks, John.

Originally posted by john g:
I am referring to the file oobeditor.exe, it is simple to use, and misuse. I could use it without docs. The editor that is there now I don't want to use, so I went back and copied oobeditor from my 4.3b backup set.
thanks, John.

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It's "SPWAWeditor.exe" now, and still installed into the \SPWAW-folder with v6.1 ?!?!

A.

[ August 15, 2001: Message edited by: Arralen ]</p>

Hmm since oobeditor,exe and SPWaWeditor .exe are essentially the same thing, what is it about the new one you don't like?? (about lists them both as ver 4.2...)

I am pretty sure the name was changed and that was it?

On the intro of capped AP I believe it was available for Supercharge, but not sure howearily it started trickling in.

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
Hmm since oobeditor,exe and SPWaWeditor .exe are essentially the same thing, what is it about the new one you don't like?? (about lists them both as ver 4.2...)

I am pretty sure the name was changed and that was it?

.

Ok, I missed that file, I was looking at oob's with the oobdmp.exe (in the Chlanda folder) and wondering how people would use that to edit oob's. The install didn't put in a shortcut to the spwaweditor, and since I had one to oobedit I guess maybe I put that one in. All is forgiven.
thanks, John.

Originally posted by Richard Harris:
The .55cal Boys ATR using the AP W Mk2 cartridge (steel core, mv 3250f/s) should theoretically penetrate about 29mm of armour at pointblank range and 0deg impact angle. (This is extrapolated back using the geometric ratios of the game engine from the datum: 20mm/500m/0deg, which is the value for this particular cartridge from Hogg, Infantry Weapons of WW2.) Lead cored ball ammo was also widely available (with quite dismal penetration characteristics) and it is possible that many of the low values associated with this weapon are due to the ball ammo being used.
It is interesting to note that a tungsten cored AP round was developed and issued in small numbers from 1940 (AP W Mk3). This had 'rather better' performance than the conventional (steel cored) AP W Mks 1&2. No figures given by Hogg unfortunately.

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Hi Richard,

I can find only two figures. AJ Barker's "British & American Infantry Weapons" gives the Boys a penetration of 16mm at 500 yards at the time it won the selection competition (1937?), so that would have to the steel cored projectile.

Now Hogg uses the same data in his "Infantry Weapons" as he does in his other book "Tank Killing", that is 21 mm at 330 yards. He does not state whether this is with the steel cored or tungsten cored projectile. I would not have expected the penetration drop off to be as great as 24% (21 to 16 mm) from 300 to 500 yards. Think about it, that would indicate a 24% drop in velocity as the other factors such as mass and bullet mass/shape/density/hardness would be constant. This would give the maximum range of the boys at about 700-800 yards with an algorythmic loss of velocity....which is impossible. A normal rifle bullet goes a couple of thousand yards, and the Boys having a heavier pill at a higher muzzle velocity must go further. So this makes me suspect that the 21mm figure could be the Tungsten cored projectile.

My guess would be the Steel cored projectile has a penetration of 16+ (higher at point blank) and the Tungsten 21+.

Originally posted by Possum:
Hello All.
I have just done some research into the OOB's and here is what I've found......

[snip]
On to ATR's

Boys ATR, AP Pen.= 26, Range = 15, Accuracy = 7

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I've also been dismayed at the leathality of the Boys but I have not posted as I am struggling to decide it it is unnaturally lethal or if its the "other guy is too good" syndrome. I really don't have any personal feel for how much penetration it should have (others have quoted values) but I question the accruacy. A value of 7 give it a 50% first round to hit % at about 2 hexes (7\4 but I don't know how the game rounds off). I find that the Boys regularly gets first round % in the low 40%s. I can not see how this can happen with an accuracy of 7. I will run some tests to confirm my +40% experience and post them.

I don't have a problem with accuracy as it should be fairly easy to hit a big tank or car with a rifle type fired weapon.
I don't have a problem with range as the projectile can probably travel a long distance.
What I can't fathom is the 'kill' potential of the weapon. I can understand putting a hole in a vehicle but that 'hole' continually equates to a 'kill'.
Is that a factor of penetration or is some other combat routine evaluating the effect of the penetration? That's the part that isn't working right even if penetration possibility is correct.
After all a Boys ATR SUNK MY R-BOAT! How? And how does the rifle consistently kill Armored cars, halftracks and tanks?
The penetration/hit might get lucky and immobilize a car, tank, or halftrack but killing the vehicle seems unbelievable on the scale it accomplishes.
I understand the vehicle gets 'killed' when the crew all dies so maybe that's what is wrong. Should a vehicle be killed when the crew goes KIA or should it just become abandoned? (And hence available for a later recrew by another crew at reduced effectiveness/ability/movement?)