Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: bstarr

Wouldn't using HMGs in AA role overstate their capabilities in that role. I mean, every time a mission was flown to that hex it would be taken for granted that every HMG was pointed skyward. Besides, in dense terrain it is almost impossible to mount a MG to cover ground approaches and mount them for AA.

They're already used in that role in the game. But they only function as AA weapons, not for ground combats.

Not in the standard division. Take the Jap divisions for example, only device 272 13mm AAMG (2) has AA capability. It should probably stay that way. This gun was mounted and used in primarily an AA role.

ORIGINAL: bstarr

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: bstarr

Wouldn't using HMGs in AA role overstate their capabilities in that role. I mean, every time a mission was flown to that hex it would be taken for granted that every HMG was pointed skyward. Besides, in dense terrain it is almost impossible to mount a MG to cover ground approaches and mount them for AA.

They're already used in that role in the game. But they only function as AA weapons, not for ground combats.

Not in the standard division. Take the Jap divisions for example, only device 272 13mm AAMG (2) has AA capability. It should probably stay that way. This gun was mounted and used in primarily an AA role.

Sorry, my last post was not clear in that regard. I was talking about the machine guns that are in the game but are only represented as AA weapons and not in their ground role(Browning, Bren, Vickers and Maxim). Of course all represented dual (2) MG were only used for AA defense. But most heavy machine guns were employed for this purpose in WW2, even the Japanese Type 92. The 13mm Type 93 and another 7.7mm Type 92 (there were two models) were "pure" AA weapons as you correctly said.

If I understand Lemurs correctly, he prefers to include heavy machine guns as rifle squads for simplification. I mainly advocate to include them as ground weapons with AA capabilities because most combat formations of the IJA completely lacked other AA weapons as part of their organic structure. Even if the "normal" Type 92 was not the best weapon (for this and all other purposes), its incusion would give IJA formations at least some protection.

The next problem beyond lack of spots in our device database is that a weapon is an army device which can fight ground battles or it is an AA weapon. The game does not allow both.

You have to realize i am not against these ideas but we have to work within the system.

Mike

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

The next problem beyond lack of spots in our device database is that a weapon is an army device which can fight ground battles or it is an AA weapon. The game does not allow both.

You have to realize i am not against these ideas but we have to work within the system.

Mike

The 20mm Anti-Tank/Anti-Air cannon seems to function both as ground combat and AA device now (according to other posts). Does not solve the problem of open slots, however.

How do you treat US Browning and British Vickers (and Russian Maxim and so on) now? Adding them as additional rifle squads to the TOE's?

If you mean the .30cals not the .50s, then i have done very little with them. I do not have a good comprehensive source for either American TOEs or British TOEs. I do have basic TOE info but the level of detail i need.
If i had this detail or someone else (hint) wanted to volunteer, i would add the .30cals as squads or half squads depending on the size of the organization. I.e. if a .30cal is in a 6 man team then count it as a half rifle squad, if it is in an 11 man team call it a full rifle squad.

I checked with Don and we have no spare slots.

I actually had thought that someone was already doing the Commonwealth and American land OOB & TOE but that seems to have not happened.

Mike

If someone volunteers, send the TOE numbers to me and i will integrate it and get it out with our release.

Mike

Hi,

I'll continue now with Japanese brigades. I fear that I'll have to edit some parts of the stuff here in the future because I'm still learning more about them every day. Some information presented here is based on guesses or assumptions and I'll try to make this clear when writing.

Brigades existing at start of Scen. 15/16:

About these formations there is some relieable information available. Most of independently acting brigades were in China at this time. I don't know why, but the game makes a difference here between Independent and Mixed Brigades. This seems not to be correct, as (as far as I know) all brigades present in this theatre were Independent Mixed Brigades operating under the same TOE (5 battalions, artillery unit, engineer unit). They were mostly used as garrison formations to subdue Chinese partisan activity in rear areas. There were twenty of them in existence then.

Somewhat special was the 21st Independent Mixed Brigade which contained the 170th Infantry Rgt and one battalion from the 38th Mtn. Rgt. While it carried the designation "Independent Mixed", it actually was a different kind of formation that had become independent when 48th Division converted from (short-lived) square to triangular formation. Basically it only was a reinforced infantry regiment with three regular infantry battalions and a mountain artillery battalion.

56th Infantry Brigade starts the game at Palau. This formation historically belonged to 56th Division and was with the division on Kyushu then. Historically it was intended and used for the invasion of the PI apart from its division and was not really a brigade but the (56th) infantry commander of the 56th Division with one regiment of this division under command. The rest of the division was used as part of 25th Army. Because the 56th Division starts the game at full strength, we currently have the 56th Infantry Brigade two times in the game. Maybe the best solution would be to simply split one regiment (146th) off the division and accordingly reduce its starting strength; the 146th Rgt later rejoined the division in Burma.

65th Brigade that starts at Pescadores was a very strong combat formation with three regiments and one engineer unit (battalion) but no organic artillery unit under command. It is too weak in infantry but too strong in artillery in the game. It was a somewhat strange formation and not really a brigade but some kind of Independent Infantry Unit. I don't know what later happened with this unit but later in the war some "sister-units" of it were raised that eventually formed infantry divisions.

22nd Independent Mixed Brigade: Just as some kind of sidenote, this unit arrives in the game as a reinforcement at Taan in October 1942. Don't know when it actually was formed, but I think that at least three of its five battalions existed in Dec 1942, probably serving garrison duty on Hainan at this time.

23rd Independent Mixed Brigade: This formation is at Saigon at start in the game as 23rd Mixed Brigade. It did not exist then and was formed after or together with 22nd Ind. Mixed Brigade (in October 1942?). It seems to have been confused with 23rd Brigade of 18th Infantry Division which acted under the designation "Takumi Detachment" during the landings in Malaya (landing at Kota Bharu). 18th Division should be reduced in strength accordingly.

Some general information about IJA Brigades (trying to make it comprehensive)

(1) The brigades found in square divisions and included in their divisional structures. There were two brigades in every square division, commanding two infantry regiments each. Sometimes those brigades acted independently, but mostly with only one regiment and some small artillery and engineer contingents under command. Examples for this are 56th and 21st Brigades which are present in the game at start of Scen. 15/16.

(2) Independent Mixed Brigades. Most of the brigades present in the game at start fell under this category. They were formed with (mostly) five independent battalions under command, each battalion having five rifle companies, a infantry gun company and a heavy company, but rifle companies having only two platoons (instead of the usual three platoons). Heavy companies had 10 MMG but no mortars while infantry gun companies normally fielded 2 70mm Howitzers and 2 37mm Anti-Tank Guns (sometimes replacing this with 4 90mm or 8 81mm Mortars). At brigade level a artillery battalion with 12 75mm Field Guns and a engineer unit were added.

TOE for Independent Mixed Brigade:
180x IJA Rifle Squad, 6x IJA Engineer Squad, 10x 70mm Howitzer, 12x 75mm Field Gun, 10x 37mm Anti-Tank Gun, 50x Type 92 MMG, 18x Engineer Squad

(3) Independent Infantry Brigades. These brigades were formed for the C-Type Garrison Divisions. Don’t know why they nevertheless kept the designation as “independent”. They had only 4 rifle battalions each. When garrison divisions were formed it was common practice that the Independent Mixed Brigades that were used for this purpose gave one of their battalions to the newly formed brigade (both were named “Independent Infantry Brigade” then). Thus in most cases only three of the eight battalions of the new divisions were newly raised formations. It seems that sometimes the engineer unit of the former Independent Mixed Brigade was put under direct command of a garrison division as divisional unit and that the Independent Infantry Briagades completely lacked engineer assets of their own then.

To be continued...