Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Mziln

doctormm:

I will not resort to pictograms to try and make points. Please note I did not say "make a point".

Good for you. You're still mind-numbingly wrong. Patrice has quite politely shown you your errors. Yet you persist.

If you're really into analyzing syntax, going with your reading of the rule, why is it "they" and not "it"? Note that there is only one plural noun in the sentence for "they" to agree with - "units".

As I simply said, hexes are never "at war" so Mzlin interpretation is just plainly and definitely wrong.
The "they" evidently designate the units, not the hexes.

Anyway Mzlin, may I suggest you if you have any other suggestions to do regarding the re-wording of the rules, to do them on the WiF Discussion Yahoo list, as it is more appropriate to that.
Moreover, you'll find there some buddies who will straight your understanding of the rules.

It is here (you'll need to create a free Yahoo account to subscribe)
http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/wifdiscussion

If you want to learn French, there even is a French WiF discussion group there :
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worldi ... _francais/

This forum is for designing MWiF, and Steve has made it clear that he does not intend to re-write the rules (hopefully), he's only here to put them faithfully into a great working software.

Best Regards

ORIGINAL: Froonp

As I simply said, hexes are never "at war" so Mzlin interpretation is just plainly and definitely wrong.
The "they" evidently designate the units, not the hexes.

Anyway Mzlin, may I suggest you if you have any other suggestions to do regarding the re-wording of the rules, to do them on the WiF Discussion Yahoo list, as it is more appropriate to that.
Moreover, you'll find there some buddies who will straight your understanding of the rules.

It is here (you'll need to create a free Yahoo account to subscribe)
http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/wifdiscussion

If you want to learn French, there even is a French WiF discussion group there :
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/Worldi ... _francais/

This forum is for designing MWiF, and Steve has made it clear that he does not intend to re-write the rules (hopefully), he's only here to put them faithfully into a great working software.

Best Regards

All units from the conquered side in that country are now moved to the nearest friendly hex outside the country that they may stack in, unless they are at war with the conquerer.


In this case "unless they are at war with" represents Major Powers, Minor Countries, and Territories.

Units do not declare war or conquer anything. "The military is a tool used to pursue diplomacy by other means".

Major Powers declare war. Major Powers conquer home countries and territories. Aligned Minor Countries and Territories are at war with anyone their controlling Major Power is at war with.

Major Powers, Minor Countries, and Territories are geographical entities (see rule: 2.5 Control).

Therfore its the hexes not the units.

You have given your interpretation I challenge you to support your claim. I have given mine and supported them in several of the rules already.

Cite a historical precedent for your interpretation of this rule or a rule supporting your claim. Don't even try to cite the foreign intervention in Russia in 1919. The war between the Reds and the Whites was from 1918 to 1920.

Cite an instance where country 1 surrendered to country 2 and allowed country 3 to remain in country 1.

Please note that I have repeatedly stated I have no problem with any Matrix interpretation of this or any other rule.

I have repeatedly posted why I cannot post at the Yahoo site.

Thank you for the links Patrice.

ORIGINAL: Mziln
Cite an instance where country 1 surrendered to country 2 and allowed country 3 to remain in country 1.

Country 1 = Italy.
Country 2 = USA of CW.
Country 3 = Germany.

History tells that when the Italian surrendered to the Allies, the German were still there, and they did not go away peacefully by themselves escorted byt the Allies.

Country 1 = Belgium.
Country 2 = Germany.
Country 3 = France & CW.

etc etc.....

All units from the conquered side in that country are now moved to the nearest friendly hex outside the country that they may stack in, unless they are at war with the conquerer.


In this case "unless they are at war with" represents Major Powers, Minor Countries, and Territories.

Units do not declare war or conquer anything. "The military is a tool used to pursue diplomacy by other means".

Major Powers declare war. Major Powers conquer home countries and territories. Aligned Minor Countries and Territories are at war with anyone their controlling Major Power is at war with.

Major Powers, Minor Countries, and Territories are geographical entities (see rule: 2.5 Control).

Therfore its the hexes not the units.

Incredible as you can torture a simple sentence to make it means absolutely anything you want.
I prefer to stop answering you about this, you're too stubborn.

I have repeatedly posted why I cannot post at the Yahoo site.

Sorry, I don't remember having seen this explanation, I didn't know that there may be problems for people to subscribe to yahoo groups.

ORIGINAL: Mziln Suggested Rule Change - 9/13/2005 4:54:02 PM

The Incomplete Conquest rules are for any home country with the exception of Italy (See: 13.7.1 Conquest ~ Italy) who suffer a Complete Conquest if 3 of 4 objectives are met. So Germany would not need to leave Italy if it is conqured.

ORIGINAL: Mziln
The Incomplete Conquest rules are for any home country with the exception of Italy (See: 13.7.1 Conquest ~ Italy) who suffer a Complete Conquest if 3 of 4 objectives are met. So Germany would not need to leave Italy if it is conqured.

Look.
13.7.1 first explains how countries are conquered (Territories, Italy, Others Home Countries headings).
Next, 13.7.1 explains that being conquered does not means the country is out of the game (Incomplete Conquest heading).
Then, 13.7.1 explains what happens when complete conquest comes (complete conquest heading).

Merely having Italy as a separate case for conquest conditions does not mean that it is a separate case for conquest consequences.

And best of all, look at the incomplete conquest heading, Italy is even cited as an example of Incomplete conquest.

Isn't that sufficient for you to understand this ????
Could you please read the rules fully before asking for any change ?

Home Countries other than Italy:

every printed factory hex
You do not need to control a hex
controls most factories in the home country (again hexes)
Has the highest garrison value (one for units)
Occupied the home country’s last factory or capital city. (again hexes)
remove home country units
change comtrol of the country (hexes) this is the same for incomplete or complete conquest (with one exception).
pick a new home country
If a unit’s original home country is conquered and not yet liberated
Incompletely Conquered Major Power Reinforcement Restrictions
incompletely conquered Minor Country aircraft units into The Reserve Pool
Incompletely conquered Major Powers have only half their normal Activity Limits

Does this sum up incomplete conquest or not?

Evidently you have not read where I have been reorganizing my copy of the rules and putting them in a html format.

Its only a few hundred files that I have been working on in my spare time for the last several months.

Would you like a copy to view?

I was going to offer you a copy anyway even before I started this thread.

Perhaps this will convince you that I have read the rules.

1.11 Sequence of Play Outline (Rule 3.1 Sequence of play)

The sequence of play in a turn is:
A. 2.1 Reinforcement Stage (REINFORCEMENT STAGE)
B. 2.2 Transferring Resources and Build Points Stage (LENDING RESOURCES STAGE)
C. 2.3 Determining Initiative Stage (INITIATIVE STAGE)
D. 3.0 The Action Stage (ACTION STAGE)
Repeat D1 through D3 until the action stage ends.
D1 3.1 The Weather Step (Determine weather)
3.2 The Length of the Turn
D2 First side’s impulse
Every major power on the first side performs these steps:
D2.1 4.0 The War Declaration Step (Declare war)
D2.2 3.3 Choosing an Action Step (Choose action)
Choose a pass, a naval, an air, a land or a combined action.
D2.3 5.0 Implementing Actions Step (Perform actions)
The major powers that didn’t pass perform these steps in this order (their action choice will limit what they can do ~ see action limits table):
A: 5.1 The Surprise Impulse
B: 5.2 Port Attack Missions
C: 5.3 Naval Air Missions
D: 5.4 Naval Movements
E: 5.5 Naval Combat (Your naval combat)
F: Opponent’s Naval Combat Step
G: 5.7 Strategic Air Missions (Strategic bombardment)
H: Option 32: Carpet Bombing
I: 5.8 Ground Strike Missions
J: 5.9 Rail Movements
K: 5.10 Land Movement
L: 5.10.3 Air Transport Missions
M: 5.10.4 Debark Land Units at Sea
N: 5.10.5 Invasions
O: 5.10.6 Paradrops
P: 5.11 Land Combat
Q: 5.12 Re-basing Aircraft (Air re-bases)
R: 5.13 Reorganization
D2.4 3.5 Last Impulse Test (end of action)
Roll to end the action stage. If it doesn’t end, advance the impulse marker the number of spaces shown on the weather chart for the current weather roll. If it ends, move on to stage E - the end of turn.
D3 Second side’s impulse
If the action stage didn’t end, repeat the steps in D2 for the second side. If the action stage doesn’t end after the second side’s impulse, go back to D1.
E. 6.0 End of Turn Stage (END OF TURN STAGE)
Both sides perform these steps in this order:
E1 Option 46: Partisans (Partisans)
E2 6.1 How The USA Enters the War (US entry)
E3 6.2 Naval Return to base (Return to base)
E4 6.3 Final Reorganization
E5 6.4 Production
E6 Option 63: Intelligence (Intelligence (option 63))
E7 6.5 Peace
E7.1 6.5.1 Conquest
E7.2 6.5.2 Allies Support a Minor Country (Allied minor support)
E7.3 6.5.3 Mutual Peace
E7.4 6.5.4 Vichy/Free France
E7.5 6.5.5 Liberation
E7.6 6.5.6 Surrender
E8 6.6 Victory Check
E9 Option 30: Factory Destruction and Construction

Home Countries other than Italy:

every printed factory hex
You do not need to control a hex
controls most factories in the home country (again hexes)
Has the highest garrison value (one for units)
Occupied the home country’s last factory or capital city. (again hexes)
remove home country units
change comtrol of the country (hexes)

pick a new home country
If a unit’s original home country is conquered and not yet liberated
Incompletely Conquered Major Power Reinforcement Restrictions
incompletely conquered Minor Country aircraft units into The Reserve Pool
Incompletely conquered Major Powers have only half their normal Activity Limits

Does this sum up incomplete conquest or not?

Far from this.
You forgot the main characteristic of Incomplete conquest.
The main characteristic of incomplete conquest, is that the conquered country still controls at least an Aligned Minor Country.
This is the only difference between an Incomplete and a Complete conquest, speaking of the definition, not the consequences. The consequences are far different.

Evidently you have not read where I have been reorganizing my copy of the rules and putting them in a html format.

No I didn't.
I always thought that any retranscription / rewritting of the RAW was dangerous, risking to loose / denature precious information. You seem to be the proof I was right by blatantly trying to make points using your rewrite while denying things plainly written in RAW7.
I tell you, I even prefer to read RAW in English rather than French, because one never know the traductions error that might have been overlooked, even if I'm French. English is not so hard to learn, read & understand, at least I though before reading this thread.

Maybe your reorganizing need rewritting, not the RAW, but for me it is useless as the only trustworthy reference to WiF FE rules is WiF FE RAW.

Its only a few hundred files that I have been working on in my spare time for the last several months.

Would you like a copy to view?

I was going to offer you a copy anyway even before I started this thread.

It's very kind of you.
But I'm sorry to say that I think you're wasting your time. You'd better use it for something more useful to the MWiF project.
Rewritting the RAW is useless because of the point I just made above, and also because RAW7 is subject to change over the time. When changes will be brought to RAW, you'll be obliged to track those changes in your rewrites, hence adding possibilities of errors, if you missed some changes for example.
If I'm not mislead, Vesa Saarinen once made an HTML version of RAW4 back in time, at http://www.helsinki.fi/~vsaarine/wif/, but he dropped this when he saw the problems there were with RAW changes.

I'm sorry, but people playing WiF FE using your rewrite may well be playing some sort of WWII grand strategic game, maybe Mziln in Flames, but it is not WiF FE, WiF FE is played by RAW7 august 04 as of today.

Alright then, I have been patent and polite to you long enough.

If YOU read the rules you would know that

1. The main characteristic of incomplete conquest is that the conquered country still controls at least an Aligned Minor Country. Is covered in pick a new home country

2. Change control of the country (hexes) this is the same for incomplete or complete conquest (with one exception). Don't blatantly quote me out of context. Don't pick a single word and say it means one thing and ignore the rest of the sentence. Don't pick a single line and try to say I refer to the entire set of rules. Don't say I torture a sentence just because I disagree with your muddled interpretation.

3. You have said go post somewhere else this is not the place to discuss the game. If this is not the place to discuss the rules of the game I don't see how discussing it elsewhere would do any good.

4. Don't try to reply to my posts until I am done with them unless you edit YOUR final version. You can see the differences between what you quote and my final version.

5. I am tired of being insulted by you.

You have said I demand rule changes.
You have said I refuse to agree to Matrix interpretations of the rules
You have said I have not read the rules so my viewpoint would be meaningless.

This is not true and you know it.

You condemn my work without even a look or second thought.

I have presented my views in a logical organized manner and only responded to any and all of your questions.

Is your venom directed at me because I pointed out there was already a rule for lend lease aircraft that you overlooked?

Fortunately all these stupid rules debates will soon be eliminated for MWIF users. If you don't like the way the rules are implemented, you can beg "Shannon" for a bug fix in a far-off future release.

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

Fortunately all these stupid rules debates will soon be eliminated for MWIF users. If you don't like the way the rules are implemented, you can beg "Shannon" for a bug fix in a far-off future release.

Which gives me an idea ....

Perhaps part of the security for MWIF should be to ask obscure questions about the rules and only let the player continue playing if gets the answer right. Or there could be little pop quizes during a game when playing against the AI and if you get the answer wrong, the AI can make illegal moves (or the player is denied a legal move). This would make MWIF somewhat like golf where the official rules manual is impenetrably obscure and even a tour professional requires a huddle of rules officials to make rulings/interpretations during play. Other possibilities are to add a bit of chance to the whole thing and roll a die to see if the rule is going to be enforced or not.

Alas, I have too many other things to do and all these beautiful ideas will languish realized. Though the last one might enter into a mythical status and be used by a player to explain why he lost so badly to the AI: "the AI cheated!".

Man, cool down !

2. Change control of the country (hexes) this is the same for incomplete or complete conquest (with one exception). Don't blatantly quote me out of context. Don't pick a single word and say it means one thing and ignore the rest of the sentence. Don't pick a single line and try to say I refer to the entire set of rules. Don't say I torture a sentence just because I disagree with your muddled interpretation.

I prefer to quote only the thing I'm replying too, because I like posts to be as short as possible.

3. You have said go post somewhere else this is not the place to discuss the game. If this is not the place to discuss the rules of the game I don't see how discussing it elsewhere would do any good.

Because Steve won't rewrite any rule.
The WiF discussion list at Yahoo is read, albeit from a distance, by Harry Rowland the designer of WiF, and some (most ?) of the changes the RAW had in its life came from comments on this list.
So if you hoped for things to be modificated, the WiF Discussion list is the best place in the world.

4. Don't try to reply to my posts until I am done with them unless you edit YOUR final version. You can see the differences between what you quote and my final version.

Sorry, I did not see that your post was not "final".
Honestly, I do not see the difference, but this must be the language.

5. I am tired of being insulted by you.

Sorry, I'm not of this kind of people who use to insult people. I apologize if you felt so.
I told you my mind honestly without wanting to insult you.
If you felt insulted, I think that first I can apologize, and second I can refrain from answering you in the future about rule rewrites.

Cheers !

Patrice

Lets use Italy as an example for incomplete conquest.

Italy is conquered when any 3 of these are true during this step:
1. The Allies control Rome.
2. The Allies control Tripoli.
3. The Allies control any printed factory hex in Italy (apart from Rome).
4. The Allied garrison value (see Option 46: Partisans) in Italy is greater than the Italian garrison value there (remember, Sicily is part of Italy).

Two of the 3 required steps should have been obtained if the Commonwealth is at war with Italy.

Tripoli has fallen.

The Allied garrison value in Italy is greater than the Italian garrison value (remember, Sicily is part of Italy).

I know rule 9.4 US entry doesn't specifically state that the USA can choose to only declare war on Italy but it does infer that this is possible.

The USA can declare war on Germany and Italy in the same step but it can’t attempt to declare war on Japan in the same step as it attempts to declare war on either of the others.

If it attempts declarations of war against both Germany and Italy in the same step, resolve it as one attempt, rather than one for each. If the attempt succeeds, it would count as 2 declarations for US entry purposes (see 13.3.2).

Now if the USA has only declared war ONLY on Italy and takes Genoa, Naples, or Tranto. Because there is a single factory in each city and they are on the coast so they could be invaded.

Italy is incompletely conquered if it controls Yugolsavia as the example does in the rules.

If more than one Major Power from the same side controls the capital and printed factories in a home country, the Major Power with the greatest influence in that home country is the conqueror.

The player with the greatest influence is whoever (when both sides are equal go to the next condition):
1. Controls most factories in the home country (with the capital counting as an additional 3 factories for this calculation).
2. Has the highest garrison value (see Option 46: Partisans) in the home country.
3. Occupied the home country’s last factory or capital city.

The USA controls the factory and has met the third required step.

The USA Controls the only factory in the home country so it is the conqueror.

All German units in Italy are moved out of the country because they are not at war with the USA.

Depending on the situation the German units would end up in Austria, Corsica, France, Greece, Yugoslavia, or a combination of these.

If Italy controls Yugolsavia it is a minor home country it has a capitol. It can mow make Yugolsavia its new home country.

Italy is at peace and will liberated when German units re-enter Rome.



Now if the USA successfully declares war against Italy again.

Italy has again been incompletely conquered the 3 requirements have already been met.

We go through this process again.

To break this loop Germany will have to declare war on the USA.

Or the Allies will slowly march up Italy and capture Rome.

Or am I wrong again?

Hello,

ORIGINAL: Mziln
All German units in Italy are moved out of the country because they are not at war with the USA.

Note that the conquest of Italy process take around 1 year, give or take a couple of months, and I would be surprised that Germany does not declare war to the USA to take advantage from a suprise Impulse against them during this time.
Anyway, up to this point all you are saying seems valid.

Italy is at peace and will liberated when German units re-enter Rome.

This is not true. A country incompletely conquered is still at war with the countries it was at war before. It is one of the differences between incomplete & complete conquest.

Please, also note that a country who is conquered a second time (that is, conquered after having been liberated previously) is conquered completely and uterly this time, loosing all units etc...

It's a tricky matter for the Germans to liberate the Italians, I would never do it. Otherwise, bye bye the green little friends and the activity limits.

Please, alors note that a country cannot be liberated in the same step it was conquered (in the case of Italy this is possible).

Cheers !

Patrice

Re-conquest

If the capital city of a liberated Major Power, home country, or Minor Country is later occupied by an enemy unit during a peace step, permanently remove all that country’s units from the game, even if it is liberated again later.

The capital city is not occupied in this instance.

There is no limitation on the USA declaring war on Italy in a subsequent declaration of war step. Moving and taking unopposed hexes and having this occur anyway. As long as they don't take Rome.

You are right about them still being at war I was in error.


Now to get this example to work we have to introduce a Japannese unit.


I know this improbable but we are in agreement on the workings of incomplete conquest so far and this is only an example.


If a Japaneese unit were in Italy at this time and at war with the USA it would stay where it is while the Germans would leave.

ORIGINAL: Mziln

If a Japaneese unit were in Italy at this time and at war with the USA it would stay where it is while the Germans would leave.

So you have a problem with the fact that a unit at war with the US would remain in Italy, but units at peace with the US would be forced to leave?

Why is this a problem, especially when it only seems to occur in these unbelievably contrived examples you give, and the rules as they stand remove a previously common problem (Japanese remaining in Persian oil hexes after Soviet conquest, which problem your suggested change brings back)?

Hello,

This agitated thread gave me an idea anyway.
One way the game could help a player.

In the improbable case Mziln took as an example (USA & Germany not at war), and with the approaching conquest of Italy, the game could warn the German player that while he is not at war with Italy's foreseen conqueror, he will be obliged to pull up his units from Italy when its conquest comes.

Or there could be a Naval advisor that would say : "The enemy has a fleet in XXX sea area, so he can try to Port Attack our YYY port."

I mean that the game could warn the player of some (maybe little known) consequences of some aspects of the present state of the game.

This could be done under the form of some sort of advisors that the player choose to consult in one of the game's menus, who would give this information. The Foreign Office Minister, a Naval Advisor, an Air Marshal, etc...