Rifles in v6.1

Khan7 · Post by **Khan7** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 5:39 am

Originally posted by Larry Holt:
[QB]AmmoSgt, I strongly suspect that the kill per rounds figures are derived not from counting rounds actually fired and bodies but from the total number of rounds supplied in a theater and the total number of casualities reported. Lots of ammo was used in training, went unused, etc. & that would drive up the numbers.[QB]

I think this explains it.

Matt

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Nov 27, 2001 9:46 am

Further numbers to keep folks argueing about this issue in a fun and friendly manner ...
from the the post war research on Infantry Rifle Effectiveness done by the wonderful folks at Aberdeen Proving Grounds and the Operational Research Office ... 80% of all rifle casulties were at under 200 yeards , and 90% were under 300 yards (in WW2) 1952 study ...
I know ya'll don't like that 50,000 round per casulity figure ...I don't like it either .. but I can't find any referencable lower numbers ..
if ANYBODY has any alternate referenciable info please post it ... near as I can tell from the report excerpts I have found .. those 50,000 are in theater expenditures .. not stateside training fires ... the other undocumentalble reason that might apply however is the 24-32 rounds of aimed fire per minute from the semi-auto M-1 Garand , as opposed to 15 for the Lee-Enfields , 12 for the Mauser, and about 10 for Mosin-Nagants .. so european major powers using much slower firing bolt action weapons may in fact have a lower per casulity usage rate ... additional Note about 20% of US WW2 rifles were 1903 or variants that would be about equivalent to the Mausers in rate of aimed fire ..
Personally I feel uncomfortable rejecting these numbers out of hand , based solely on my feelings or impressions of what ammo rates should be ... so if ya got any referencible data please post .. happy debating <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 5:31 pm

More Bizarre Numbers and wierd analysis...

Total Allied Combat Military Casualties in round numbers less the Chinese for the whole of WW2 are about 15 Million Dead and 10 Million Wounded on all Fronts from all causes ( 13.6 million dead and 5 million wounded for the Russians alone )

Total German Small Arms produced for the whole War in round numbers about 10 million rifles and MP's and about a million MG's

Assuming all casualties were caused by small arms ( they weren't) and all Allied casulities were caused by the Germans ( they weren't)

Then each German Rifle/Assualt Rifle/ MP caused on average 2 casulties and each MG caused 5 casulites .

We Know that Arty and handgrenades and Air and auto cannon and tank guns and stuff caused some if not most the casulities so lets say for the sake of arguement about half maybe a bit more ...
That means for the whole war each rifle caused maybe 1 casulity and each MG maybe 2 for the WHOLE WAR on average ..

Total BS analysis of course ... but interesting numbers none the less

Mikimoto · Post by **Mikimoto** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 5:51 pm

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
from the the post war research on Infantry Rifle Effectiveness done by the wonderful folks at Aberdeen Proving Grounds and the Operational Research Office ... 80% of all rifle casulties were at under 200 yeards , and 90% were under 300 yards (in WW2) 1952 study ...

Hi Ammo.

And the SMG casualties at under XXX yards, please?
Now most SMG have a range of 150 yards, and causing lots of casualties... Is this real?
I recall someone from Matrix justifying an effective range of seven hexes (350mts) for Thompsons in an older version...

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 6:46 pm

Mikimoto Hi ... Probably not right .. high casuality for MP should be in the 50 meter range maybe 100 for Thompsons and Lahti's due to their special nature .. I don't argue that MP's couldn't shoot 200 meters some even 300 meters ..and most WW2 rifles have sights that go out to 1000 meters ( 20 hexes) My Lee Enfield is Graduated to 1300 yards ( 26 hexes) , I have a M1891 that goes to about 1600 meters (32 hexes) ..does this mean they can shoot that far with any great hope of sucess .. nope.. just means the bullet can go that far .. can the rare sniper hit anything that far? maybe? .. but most snipers, even these days, qualify somewhere between 300 and 500 meters, even with Barret 50 cal sniper rifles... the proper question is what makes for a fun game that reflects some reasonable relationship between different weapon types ... In my humple opinion, Rifles should dominate from about 150 meters to 300 meters, MP's under 100 meters, and assualt and semiautos between 100 and 250 meters...over those ranges suppression should probably be the main effect with actual casulties being rare. But again thats just an opinion based on what I have read and my own experience shooting.

generalrichmond · Post by **generalrichmond** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 6:46 pm

If you're on a flat plain, then 200-300 yards is no big deal. But even on the steppes of Russia there were swells in the land. How hard it is to hit a target at 500 yards (10 hexes). Add to it that it probably isn't stationary, and after the first few cracks of rifle fire hit their ears they are more cautious. So under 200 yards is very understandable.

Whenever I think of distances I measure them by my memory of playing highschool football. Looking from one end of the field to the other 100-120 yards (adding endzones) is pretty far. Double that. Hmmm.... Then think of that distance times 3-5. That is a long way to even have vision, folks, at least in anything other than a desert plain.

As for SMGs, I read on one of AmmoSgt's suggested rifle sites (think it was discussing TT's and other WW2 rifles) that the effective distance of many SMGs was 150 yds.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 6:54 pm

Hold on - the SMG ranges were all reduced in version 7

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 7:02 pm

General Richmond... if ya really want a site that is fun check out http://www.ima-usa.com/p6c.html and if you have a lick of sense you will put all of your credit cards in an ice tray ...fill it with water and freeze then BEFORE you click on that link

for folks with absolutley no good sense and who haven't told their spouses what they want for Christmas click on http://www.ima-usa.com/p3.html

[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]</p>