October Update

[Sonny]

ORIGINAL: Nordiska

Funny that is how I also plan my purchases. I often find myself wondering should I buy this PC or boardgame? Oftening realizing that the cost of movie for 2 that last 2 hours? vs. number of hours of game play. If it seems like a good investment I purchase game. Rationalization does wonders huh?[8D]

Except if that other one who wants to see the movie doesn't get her way...

[ravinhood]

One comment I will make Marshall about "waiting on your testers to decide", this is a bad stance. You're the leader, you should make the decision, not your corporals or privates (you know which privates I mean)

Many Beta testers (not all but many) will never be satisfied or even give an inkling they are satisfied because if/when they do it means then their free fun is over, this for many online mmorpgs. If I recall, SSI and probably Matrixgames gives a free copy of the game to all beta testers, (at least those that actually really participated in what the JOB entails). So, this may or may not be the case with your beta test team. But, again, I would not wait on approval of your entire beta test team. I certainly wouldn't.

Certainly by now you know there are going to be disgruntled purchasers or fence sitters no matter what you produce. Those that will nit pick it to death (like me sometimes) hehe. But, that should be no nevermind. If you've made a "challenging" game and the "ai is at least decent", and it's relatively bug free (we all know by now no game will ever be released again without bugs) it's ready. You can add tweaks and other things down the road, but, you shouldn't just wait on release because of beta testers comments only.

[Ralegh]

Please don't worry. Marshall slaps me down frequently. He just means we have to get to a certain quality level, and the testers (in general) are a key indicator of that. We are making a few changes to try to get some momentum up... watch this space.

And Ravinhood, why shouldn't the privates make the decisions? My privates make most of mine.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
One comment I will make Marshall about "waiting on your testers to decide", this is a bad stance. You're the leader, you should make the decision, not your corporals or privates (you know which privates I mean)

Agreed so far

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Many Beta testers (not all but many) will never be satisfied or even give an inkling they are satisfied because if/when they do it means then their free fun is over, this for many online mmorpgs. If I recall, SSI and probably Matrixgames gives a free copy of the game to all beta testers,

A few points here :

1) beta-testers get a free game - but the free run doesn't end when the game goes gold as they've also had access to the final gold candidate = the release version.

2) The "never be satisfied" part : beta-testers are for the most part a realistic bunch - you have to be, otherwise you won't last. Time & money are putting restraints on every software development - not only wargames, so even a great feature idea might not be implemented in the 1.0 version. If you can't live with that, don't beta-test. Then again, you need to keep a fresh look at the game, so at the same time you *do* have to question the current implementation of things because the developer is often too absorbed in the woods to see the trees so to speak.

3) Developers *really* need the moral support of their beta-testers as well because sometimes they lose track of what a great game they allready have because they're too focused on the things that don't work (yet)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
beta-tester of Conquest of the Aegean

[Pippin]

One comment I will make Marshall about "waiting on your testers to decide", this is a bad stance.

I imagine that one may be debatable. Perhaps you are right that management SHOULD be the ones doing the final decision. However, when Hasbro followed that approach and didn't listen to the testers, look what happened. Axis & Allies, Iron Blitz, (*caugh.. *caugh..)

[Marshall Ellis]

ravinhood:

I must reinforce Ralegh and Pippin's points. Matrix management makes the decision to release BUT the testers are key. If they try to make the product something that it is not (rarely happens) then I'll correct them. We've got a great core team right now and I hope these guys remain so.

Testers? What are they anyway? They are customers. They are a good sampling of how the general customer base will view your product and if that is a bad stance then I'm just plain bad

I understand what your saying and please note that it is Matrix's decision but without the testers' support, they do it at great risk. You only get one chance at a first impression in this business!

Thank you

[Sonny]

You only get one chance at a first impression in this business!

And right now that impression is one of...well, you pick whatever word you think appropriate. [>:]

[ravinhood]

Hrmmm ok let's see if I can put this in a different perspective then on releasing a game. Providing it has most of the qualities I mentioned, challenging, decent AI and relatively bug free.

When a game is announced a large enthusiasm level is reached by the buying public. I know, I fall into that feeling as well. But, if the game keeps getting delayed and delayed and delayed what begins to happen and does happen is a loss of enthusiasm and even becoming totally indifferent to the game itself. Something else may preceed it and thus make it even less valueable as a purchase. I'm very prone not to buy something I already own several copies of something simular from other games until it reaches some bargain bin pricing level.

These are the sort of feelings that have hit home with EIA and CL, both games have been announced for like forever now and no release date in sight, and the enthusiasm level of wanting the games just falls lower and lower and lower (for me anyways, maybe I am the only one that feels this way I dunno).

Maybe game publishers shouldn't even announce a game until they are very sure it's going to hit the market within a very short time like six months. It's very disappointing to wait a year or more after an announcement for a game to be released. RTW did that to us, told us Dec of 2003 and then all of a sudden was moved to Sept of 2004, just totally lost a lot of enthusiasm for the game and probably why I am more disgruntled about the gameplay cause they did have all that extra time to make it better and it was crap out of the box.

Of course these are just my own customer insights, I might be totally alone, but, I've always felt if I think this way, there's got to be others as well.

[pzgndr]

Many Beta testers (not all but many) will never be satisfied or even give an inkling they are satisfied because if/when they do it means then their free fun is over

This is totally unfair to beta testers unless you can cite specific abuses. Do not even start a blame game with the testers, or with the developers or publishers without knowing and understanding what the issues are. And guess what? Real life also interferes with the best laid plans.

It's very disappointing to wait

Oh please. Maybe you should try being a beta tester and see for yourself some of the disappointments and frustrations while being involved with a project for a couple of years. I've been a tester for Schwerpunkt's Anglo-German War for like three years and it just got released. And I've been a tester for Fury's Strategic Command 2 for a couple of years and working hard to help get it released soon. It may all be "free" to a point, but there's a lot of work involved. And believe me, we do want to get the product of our efforts out on the street so others can enjoy the game also. So just be patient and wait for a quality product.

I too am waiting for EIA, and WiF, and some other games that just seem to take forever. But having worked inside the glass palace, I'm not going to throw any stones at someone else. I'll continue to wait for EiA until it's done. [:)]

[ravinhood]

pzgndr I was a beta tester for SSI for many years. Don't try to give me any elitist remarks about what it takes to be a beta tester. I was one of their very best. I brought up these same comments 20 years ago. You can't wait on every beta testers approval to release a game, just too many different types of ideas in each of their minds.

[pzgndr]

ravinwood, sorry for trying to give you any elitist remarks.

I will continue to be optimistic and patient. [:)]

[Pippin]

pzgndr I was a beta tester for SSI for many years.

I am curious, which titles were you involved on...

[ravinhood]

Battles of Napolean, No Greater Glory, Medieval Lords, Champions of Krynn series, Treasures of the Savage Frontier series.

[Pippin]

Good, because if you had been involved with Panzer General 3D, I would have had to slap you...