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This is why you dont put 5 US CVs in 1 TF. Upon further review, he may have had 2 TFs (looks like Sara and Lex were in 1 and the E, Yorktown and Hornet in the other). The date was 4/13/42 just NE of Noumena W of Efate. I have 3 CV TFs. Akagi, Hiryu, Shokaku, Zuiho in TF 1 which is in reserve 2 days north of the battle, Kaga, Soryu, Zuikaku, Ryujo in TF 2, The 2 CVEs, the other CVL, and the Junyo in TF 3. This TF only has 17 Vals and 23 Kates aboard. The other 65 aircraft in this TF are Zeros. 35 of them land based types flying off the CVL and one of the CVEs.

Net results:
50 Zeros, 9 Vals, and 21 Kates lost
1 bomb hit on Kaga causing 16 system damage, 4 flood, and 10 fire.

96 F4Fs, and 136 SBDs lost
6 bombs and 5 torps hit Enterprise sinking her
10 bombs and 4 torps hit Yorktown
2 bombs and 3 torps hit Hornet
3 bombs and 5 torps hit Saratoga sinking her
3 bombs and 3 torps hit Lexington

Detail results:
Morning strikes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 71,107

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 119

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 13
SBD Dauntless x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 13 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 16 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 71,107

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 109

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 5
SBD Dauntless x 34

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed, 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 5 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 34 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 71,107

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 84

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 19
SBD Dauntless x 51

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 8 destroyed, 9 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 18 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 36 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 71,107

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 57

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9
SBD Dauntless x 34

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 6 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 20 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 1, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 71,107

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 105

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9
SBD Dauntless x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 4 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 8 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 14 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CA Furutaka, Bomb hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 71,107

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 91

Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 16 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 70,110

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 55
D3A Val x 86
B5N Kate x 75

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 80

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 30 destroyed
D3A Val: 7 destroyed, 15 damaged
B5N Kate: 10 destroyed, 19 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 43 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 10, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 70,110

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 3
B5N Kate x 19

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
B5N Kate: 2 destroyed, 5 damaged


Allied Ships
CV Hornet, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon strikes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 70,110

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 35
D3A Val x 59
B5N Kate x 57

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 2 destroyed, 19 damaged
B5N Kate: 9 destroyed, 28 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CA Chicago, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CL St. Louis, Bomb hits 1

That's some heavy losses. It's stuff like that which puts me off sending my carriers any where near Japanese fleets. Allies seem to be VERY out matched at sea in 42 from what I've seen so far.

When you consider that I only had 4 of my 7 fleet carriers (if you count Junyo as a fleet carrier 17vf, 17va, 17vt) and well out of friendly LRCAP range and well within allied land based air cover, yes.

Frankly he caught me by surprise (not tactical as in "in game" but me personally). I thought his carriers were in NZ or maybe eastern Australia. I didnt have a sighting on them even though I had Mavis and Emilys flying contantly out of the Solomons (both recon and nav search) and a few days before the battle I moved a Mavis to that cluster of dot bases SE of the Solomons as well with an AV support.

ORIGINAL: Wolfeh

That's some heavy losses. It's stuff like that which puts me off sending my carriers any where near Japanese fleets. Allies seem to be VERY out matched at sea in 42 from what I've seen so far.

They are not outmatched but the allies need to play smart and sneaky.
Better to attack the KB when it's not aware of your presence and it's busy doing something else. Your DBs can really ruin the day of the jap commander...believe me!

ORIGINAL: Wolfeh

That's some heavy losses. It's stuff like that which puts me off sending my carriers any where near Japanese fleets. Allies seem to be VERY out matched at sea in 42 from what I've seen so far.

It is shame, but few (even the AI) repeat the same mistake of the Imperail Japanese Navy of dividing their forces. The IJN with one large CV force was formidable, but it can't be at all places and at all times. Also not the advantage of coordinated flights given to the IJN early in the war as others have noted. Read the rules on USN operations that get better as time goes by. Best to split up your CV forces early one, and use hit and run tactics...unless, of course, the IJN player divides his forces in something like a Coral Sea. Then go for it!

Worr, out

ORIGINAL: worr

ORIGINAL: Wolfeh

That's some heavy losses. It's stuff like that which puts me off sending my carriers any where near Japanese fleets. Allies seem to be VERY out matched at sea in 42 from what I've seen so far.

It is shame, but few (even the AI) repeat the same mistake of the Imperail Japanese Navy of dividing their forces. The IJN with one large CV force was formidable, but it can't be at all places and at all times. Also not the advantage of coordinated flights given to the IJN early in the war as others have noted. Read the rules on USN operations that get better as time goes by. Best to split up your CV forces early one, and use hit and run tactics...unless, of course, the IJN player divides his forces in something like a Coral Sea. Then go for it!

Worr, out

Japs suffer the same coordination problems the allies do. They just have a higher tolerance for it. I cut my CV groups down to around 230 aircraft each. This gives me a 70% chance of coordinated attacks. If you keep the KB together, you are automatically uncoordinated. The way I deploy my carriers is far superior to keeping the KB together in 1 TF (I assume thats what you mean).

The reason I was in the New Calidonia area is to invade. I have 9 divisions, 7 or 8 tank regiments, scores of artillery, AA, base units ect comming also. 1 x 100 ship landing force and 1 x 87 ship landing force, plus 2 x replenshiment, supply TF, 5 bomardment TFs, ect. Someone has to cover these as well.

Basically the whole Jap fleet is there except my ASW groups a convoy running the 5th division along the west coast of Malaysia, and oil/resource convoys.

that long to take pm! fell to me feb.

ORIGINAL: tigercub

that long to take pm! fell to me feb.

PM? I took Moresby in January. About a week after Rabul fell if I recall correctly. This is New Calidonia. A tad further south.

(in reply to Wolfeh)

A result such as reported is to be expected until:
The US has 36 fighters in the fighter squadron
The torpedo sqdrns have TBFs
All US ships have AAA upgrades with 40mm.

Once you have all that you may damage some IJN carriers and demolish their airgroups before you're blown to smithereens.

Ignoring anything you've ever read/heard about Coral Sea, Midway, Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz being less than overwhelming and inevitable Japanese victories will serve you best.

Related to this all -

Do you not feel that have 5 US CV's in separate TF's is a little gamey?

Regards,

Steven

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Related to this all -

Do you not feel that have 5 US CV's in separate TF's is a little gamey?

Regards,

Steven

Not really - the US separated its CVs into smaller TFs for precisely this reason to prevent a single attack from destroying the entire force (and had less coordination - and so we have the US with a "coordination penalty"). The IJN did not separate their CVs into separate TFs, had better coordination - and lost 4 in one devastating attack at Midway.

I think the coordination rules are somewhat bogus - that they are an artifact of how the two different navies split their CVs up (or didn't). If the USN didn't split up the CVs, i doubt they would have been less coordinated than the IJN (particularly given the IJN's penchant for AC without radios).

Hi,

Sure they had smaller TF's.

Coral sea - 2 CV's in 1 TF.

Midway - 2 in 1 and 1 in another.

But I don't recall them ever have 5 separate TF's of 1 CV?

Just my thoughts [:)]

Steven

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi,

Sure they had smaller TF's.

Coral sea - 2 CV's in 1 TF.

Midway - 2 in 1 and 1 in another.

But I don't recall them ever have 5 separate TF's of 1 CV?

Just my thoughts [:)]

Steven

I don't think (the USN) had 5 CVs in operation in the PTO at any one time until the KB had lost many of its carriers.

Now, of course, if you would LIKE to continue to make the mistakes the various admirals made in WW2, you are free to do so - just don't be too surprised when it doesn't work out too well![:'(]

During the initial phase of Operation Watchtower, the US carriers operated independently. I know there were three on station at one point; there might have been 4.

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Related to this all -

Do you not feel that have 5 US CV's in separate TF's is a little gamey?

Regards,

Steven

Why would it be "gamey"? Thats the way they were deployed.

Coral Sea had 2 carriers in 2 TFs. Strikes coordinated.
Midway had 3 carriers in 2 TF. Strikes were uncoordinated.
Eastern Solomons had 3 carriers in 2 TF. Strikes were uncoordinated.
Santa Cruz had 2 carriers in 1 TF. Strikes were uncoordinated.

After Santa Cruz, damaged Enterprise was the only American carrier left in the Pacific. This caused them to sit back and firgure out what was wrong.