Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Additionally, would the Japs be willing to invest what would be necessary to re-take the island, given their other military objectives.

Oh, yeah. If there is stuff to kill, IJA will be there. There is always some nasty LCU or other that can be shaken lose from somewhere. Hell, chances are, there's one already saddled up waiting to go.

Agreed, the Japs can take anything they want anytime they want early in the war, for the most part. Don't forget that the Japanese start the game with about 50 divisions. That's 50. That doesn't even count the BDEs, Nav Guard, NLF and SNLF forces. About 20 or so of those Div are in China and some, I don't know how many are in Manchuria.

So if Japan wants to attack Marcus Is. it will take it. The fact that he has not yet taken Wake is probably not a sign of a lack of resources. It smells like a trap to me. Remember that Japan wins by forcing you into a decisive battle early in the war.

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Additionally, would the Japs be willing to invest what would be necessary to re-take the island, given their other military objectives.

Oh, yeah. If there is stuff to kill, IJA will be there. There is always some nasty LCU or other that can be shaken lose from somewhere. Hell, chances are, there's one already saddled up waiting to go.

Agreed, the Japs can take anything they want anytime they want early in the war, for the most part. Don't forget that the Japanese start the game with about 50 divisions. That's 50. That doesn't even count the BDEs, Nav Guard, NLF and SNLF forces. About 20 or so of those Div are in China and some, I don't know how many are in Manchuria.

So if Japan wants to attack Marcus Is. it will take it. The fact that he has not yet taken Wake is probably not a sign of a lack of resources. It smells like a trap to me. Remember that Japan wins by forcing you into a decisive battle early in the war.

If the Allied player is fighting a delaying action in Southeast Asia, the fact that there is potential for losses by the invasion of Marcus Island should be of little concern since the allied player is willing to take losses to gain time.

I am still of the opinion that Marcus Island is viable and could be held - the USA has plenty of Divisions, etc., to spare [Hawaii alone has several] and more to come. The Jap is just speading out and may lose stragetic focus by rounding up units from other theaters [i.e., trying to root-out PA Divisions with SNLFs ain't that easy].

However, I understand those who feel that such is just "hanging meat out for the lion".[&o]

To get back to the original question as to the unusual, japanese opening - A good friend of mine, nicknamed "The Weasel", has argued that the Japanese player should ignore Pearl Harbor and concentrate the KB on the British Navy [although not a novel idea[8|]. After running several hypotheticals, it appears to me that he may have a point but I'm not sure how that would effect the "end-game". I have seen that a strike at Pearl may have limited and sometimes frustrating results for the Jap. Furthermore, it appears that the KB hanging around to conduct a second strike at Pearl has very little productive value [i.e., additional ship damage seems de minimis]. I wonder if others have seen like results?[&:]

If this is true, the Jap may be better off "playing" with the Royal Navy then turning of the pre-WWI USN Battleships.[X(]

I faced the KB vs Singapore gambit. I lost Repulse. PoW got out with 98% damage (I had to pop into a few ports to cut its flooding damage, but managed to get her out and on the way to the US west coast). I lost about 25 merchant ships getting the Malaya army out (I considered that reasonable losses vs losing the whole army). Jap player didnt keep the KB together and I would sick bait units out to keep his planes flying. When his carriers were out of av gas, I'd dash. Had 3 divisions plus a bunch of lesser units in PM (24th, 25th, and 2nd Marine) and III corps HQ, so I think he would have been hard pressed to take that. The 9 US BBs were moving to Darwin to disrupt his landings on Java (if he ever got around to doing it) and the carriers had deposited thier aircraft on Oz, and they were making their way to Java as well. He took Palembang and clouds of B17s were raining bombs on his oil fields. Wasnt pretty.

Leaving no threat in the eastern Pacific isnt a good idea.

ORIGINAL: grunt6971

If this is true, the Jap may be better off "playing" with the Royal Navy then turning of the pre-WWI USN Battleships.[X(]

I think it depends on the over all strategy of the Japanese player. However, IMHO, PH is the best option. Here's why: the RN can easily be countered in 42 because it lacks air support; if the allied player uses Sing surface ships in 42, there seems about a 50% probability that the will be sunk before they can cause any significant damage. Further, the US BBs, while old and outdated are very useful (raiding, shore bombardment, AA platform). An attack on PH usually sinks one to two of these with considerable sys damage to the rest. Those with high sys damge usually end up on the WC clogging up the repair ship yards.

In one of my games, my opponent spent the first two days at PH, sinking two and damaging most of the rest. I slipped and let POW and Repulse get sunk on a raid. Now I have one undamaged BB for the pacific ocean and one for the Indian ocean. [X(]

If your going for points I think PH is a bad choice, but if your going for strategic positioning, its one of your best choices.

If the Allied player is fighting a delaying action in Southeast Asia, the fact that there is potential for losses by the invasion of Marcus Island should be of little concern since the allied player is willing to take losses to gain time.

If you are playing a game that can be decided on points, this is a fallacy. Points earned by the enemy for destroyed friendly materiel can never be erased, and can only be answered by the destruction of three or four times as many points belonging to the enemy. It is an unfortunate fact of this game's design that VPs for destroying materiel are the primary object. Of course if you agree to ignore VPs, this no longer applies. But then you need some other mechanism for determining victory. I submit that in this case, an early invasion of Marcus (or Wake, or anyplace else in the Central Pacific) is still irrelevant. It merely exposes your force to destruction in detail.

Marcus doesnt threaten the Japs in any way. You cant keep it supplied (unless you are willing to offer up even tons more points running convoys in), it isnt big enough base to be a bomber threat (unless you take months to expand it to its maximum which is only level 5). There is just nothing of strategic importance within range to make it worth the allies time that early. You are just giving away points for naught.

No matter how many troops you put there the Japs can bring more. OR they simply cut off your supplies and turn it into a giant prison camp.

I would say if you want to do something with Marcus, FT some units there to take it (is there a Jap garrison) and use it for the sole purpose of ferrying planes into or out of PI

To come back with the initial question, I think there are several ways to make your opponent think it was a bad idea to bypass PI.

The obvious is to use it as a submarine and PT base. Japanese convoys will sail NW of PI between Japan and SE Asia and intercepting them from Luzon is possible.

I will also move my heavy bombers out of PI, but bring them some time later and bomb Taiwan oilfields or Honk Kong repair yard.

If Japanese forces land on Luzon with less than one division, send half of the PI Army and try to defeat them. Aparri is probably too far for that, your troops may be cut from your main army. But Naga and Legaspi are OK. Trying to keep all ressource bases is a good idea.

Always keep PBY in PI so that you can see Japanese ships move. It is a bad idead to send 2 divisions retake Apparri if 150 Japanese AP are sailing towards Lingayen.

ORIGINAL: madflava13

Also, don't discount Manila as a place to hold out - the bonus you receive for fighting in the city is substantial!

Contradicts the historical situation where Mac declared it an open city and fell back to Bataan, which in this game is a walk in the park. Anyone know exactly why this was the case? Macs sentiment for the populace?

I'd like to thank whoever wrote about shock attacking the Japs when they first enter Changsha, can't remember exactly where, probably in an AAR. I got a 7-1 on them, there were two divisions and two support units although a third division was on the way.

A lot of my air units in Malaya got chewed up attacking the Khota Bharu invasion force because my opponent finally put Zeros on LR Cap to defend it, I had not bothered sending any fighters on escort missions. Maybe Buffalos on escort might not have helped much anyway.

Ron, I think the reason Bataan held out as long as it did historically because the geography of the peninsula favored defense. The Japs could attack frontally only along a narrow front. The main disadvantage of defending Manila from a military point of view would have been the need to provide food for all of the civilians if the city were under siege, something the game does not take into account. The game will only use supplies for the military forces that are in a hex. I'm sure that even back in 1941 the population of Manila was quite large.

The main reason MacArthur declared Manila an "open city" was due to his love for the city and its people. Bataan might possibly have been a decent place to make a defensive stand, IF he had actually concentrated the supplies there according to plan. Instead he had the major supply dumps in a more forward position to better implement his "defend the beaches" plan. The Japanese made a pretty good defensive battle in Manila afer Mac returned...

After not hearing from my opponent for more than a month, he says he wants to continue this game. Right now I'm rather busy so if anyone is interested in taking over this game from me send me a PM. We've gotten only up to Dec. 11 so far.

I agree,MacArthur loves Manila and even after the war he personally intervene in death sentence to gen.Yamashita. Yamashita was hang becouse of Manila and becouse MacArthur wants Yamashita to be hang,personal revenge for Manila.
MacArthur was classical cowboy stile general.

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

It is easy to say it, not so easy to actually march your boys into Manila from Naga with 45,000 in Lamon Bay behind you. Yeah, they'd be slow leaving down the trail, and maybe you can handle Manila before they get between you and Legaspi. Remember though that the whole thing that is going on in the PI in this case begins with light ground forces for IJ.

The supply they get is irrelevant. I never count on starving them out. Just keep bombing the airfields so they can't build forts.

Just keep bombing the airfields so they can't build forts

Yet another annoying design feature. I wonder if GG plays his games?