Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:00 pm**

I'll leave this for someone else!

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

are you sure it is a chin rad ? and not them wierd oil coolers ? depend on the angle, those coolers can look like a chin rad

Could be right, I just classified all the funny lumps as radiators. In fact an oil cooler is a rad as well, so swap chin for cheek, and I am still correct![;)]

...
so yea, over all you were right on, but you were looking at Pic's, not the same as telling the difference in a fight

- never claimed I could do it in real time - what I achieved was with my bumper book of fighters open on my lap - it is a bit big and heavy for cockpit use!
You are obviously far more skilled than I at sims - my target recognition goes 'ours or theirs?!'!

Posted: **Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:29 pm**

of course you are doing good

well thing with the chin rad and oil coolers, just the idea that the coolers are to the side of the lower engine, but can look depending on the angle as if they were on the bottom of it, thereby making it look more like Chin rad then the side coolers

(LOL there I go again, I think when I explain something, it gets more confusing)

which so saying

if it has a chin Rad, then the chances are good it is a 202 model

if does not have a chin Rad but has side lower oil coolers, then the chances are good it is a 205

(hassle being the 202 could easily have the 205 engine placed in it, and the 205 could in need put a 202 engine in it)

LOL think this is bad, you should of seen the thread on the 109 T

or the 109 E 1

Posted: **Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:44 pm**

Isn't a 109T just a 109E with folding wings? Almost identical to eachother...
[consult Bumper book of fighters]
Ah - extended wings, increased flap travel, retractable spoilers in upper surface of wings, strengthened fuselage at frame 7 for the hook, the hook itself, and strengthened undercart.(109T-0). DB601N for DB601A (109T-1)
[/consult Bumper book of fighters]

Ah - obviously different, anyone could see at a glance![;)]

Posted: **Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:46 pm**

Ahhh
not to get this started up again, but what about the T2 (which is the standard)

Posted: **Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:47 pm**

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Ahhh
not to get this started up again, but what about the T2 (which is the standard)

The T2 is the version with all the carrier kit removed...In service in Norway until the end of 1944.

My book covers pretty much everything. Want to try more?

I'll even tell you what the book is if you are nice![8D]

Posted: **Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:09 pm**

Well that is part of the debate, if the Navel stuff is removed, is it still a different plane then the E4

(between me and the "gang" we got a pretty good sourse ourselfs

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:48 pm**

Hi Warspite,

My book covers pretty much everything. Want to try more?

Does your book have a convincing description of the differences between a Bf109 E1, E2, E3 and basic E4 ? Engines, weapons etc ?

regards Otis

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:05 pm**

Oh no....wing bubbles again..........[;)]

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:54 pm**

Duck, run for the hills, OB woke up

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:08 pm**

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2

Hi Warspite,

My book covers pretty much everything. Want to try more?

Does your book have a convincing description of the differences between a Bf109 E1, E2, E3 and basic E4 ? Engines, weapons etc ?

regards Otis

109V10 was effectively the 109E prototype, DB600Aa engine, flew June 1937. Several other Versuchs airframes flew with carburated DB600Aa, but V15 and subsequent a/c had direct fuel injected DB601A at 1175hp.
E1: initial series, 4x7.9mm mg. E3 similar, but 2x7.9mmmg, and 2 wing mounted 20mm MGFF cannon. 1540 E1 and 3 produced in 1938/9, with 45 in Spain by Feb 1939.
E4 - next prod version, with improved MGFF cannon, and E4/B was a fighter bomber version. E4/N replaced the 601Aa with the 601N at 1200hp.
E5, 6 both recce fighters (different camera fits).
E7 took over from the E4/N, and had provision for a 300l drop tank, E7/Trop being the tropicalised one.
E7/U2 had additional armour, and the E7/Z had GM-1 nitrous oxide injection.
E8 had DB601E at 1350hp and improved pilot armour.
E9 was recce version of E8
The last E series production was in early 1942.
Exports included Switzerland (60) Yugoslavia (73), USSR (3), Japan (3), Romania(69), Bulgaria(19), Slovakia(14) amd Croata(n/k). 20 also transferred to Spain from Condor Legion

Thats all I have - no mention of E2 at all!

BTW - The Complete Book of Fighters, William Green & Gordon Swanborough, Salamander Books ltd, ISBM 1-85833-777-1

Posted: **Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:33 am**

Thanks Warspite.

Thats all I have - no mention of E2 at all!

Good try, but no prize !

Back to sleep [>:]

Otis

Posted: **Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:49 am**

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

BTW - The Complete Book of Fighters, William Green & Gordon Swanborough, Salamander Books ltd, ISBM 1-85833-777-1

Sounds like "A boys own Complete Book of Fighters"

Posted: **Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:47 pm**

overall sounds like a good book

too bad it is by Green

*but then again, since most books either are by him or use his info, it is close to the same thing*

on a side note, does it have any info on the Tojo ?

if so could you print what it says about the verisons

Posted: **Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:24 pm**

What are these screens from?

Posted: **Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:52 pm**

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

overall sounds like a good book

too bad it is by Green

*but then again, since most books either are by him or use his info, it is close to the same thing*

on a side note, does it have any info on the Tojo ?

if so could you print what it says about the verisons

What do you have against Green?

Nakajima Ki44 Shoki (Type 2 fighter)
First flew 1940, 3 prototypes with Nakajima Ha-42 engines (1250 hp @ 4000m/13125ft). Each had 2x7.7mm mg, 2x12,7mm mg
7 pre-series a/c , trialed in China 1941.
40 initial prod a/c Ki-44-I (I-Ko with 4x12.7mm mg, I-Hei with relocated oil cooler and mainwheel fairing doors)
1942 officially accepted (hence type 2 fighter).

By 1942, Ki-44-II in prototype (5 a/c) and pre series prod (3 a/c). 2 stage supercharged Ha-109 engine, 1520hp at take-off. Included pilot armour and fuel tank protection.

Initial -II prod was -II-Ko, 2x7.7 mm mg in nose, and 4x12.7 mm mg in wings (delivered from late 1942)
-II-Otsu had 2 wing guns removed.
-II-Hei had 20mm cannon in wings instead of mg(not clear if 2 or 4)
Delivery phased out 1944 (1167 -II a/c made)
Ki-44-III prototype flew 1943, Ha-145 engine 2000hp for take-off. 2x20mm cannon, 26% bigger wing and larger tail
Ki-44-III-Ko 2x20mm, 2x37mm.
Not put into prod

Good enough?

I can give you info on the Ki87, or the Renard R-38... or any number of things. I have never failed to find a main type in here, but it does sometimes miss some rare sub types. What is a 109 E-2 anyone?

Posted: **Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:00 pm**

Got it!

http://www.sunynassau.edu/dptpages/phys ... 6index.htm

(Well, it came top in a search on Google![;)])

More reasonably, seen:
http://www.adlertag.de/flugzeuge/bf109eeng.htm ? Says E-2 not produced. Doesn't say what it might have been...Photo recce?

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:45 am**

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

109V10 was effectively the 109E prototype, DB600Aa engine, flew June 1937. Several other Versuchs airframes flew with carburated DB600Aa, but V15 and subsequent a/c had direct fuel injected DB601A at 1175hp.
E1: initial series, 4x7.9mm mg. E3 similar, but 2x7.9mmmg, and 2 wing mounted 20mm MGFF cannon. 1540 E1 and 3 produced in 1938/9, with 45 in Spain by Feb 1939.
E4 - next prod version, with improved MGFF cannon, and E4/B was a fighter bomber version. E4/N replaced the 601Aa with the 601N at 1200hp.
E5, 6 both recce fighters (different camera fits).
E7 took over from the E4/N, and had provision for a 300l drop tank, E7/Trop being the tropicalised one.
E7/U2 had additional armour, and the E7/Z had GM-1 nitrous oxide injection.
E8 had DB601E at 1350hp and improved pilot armour.
E9 was recce version of E8
The last E series production was in early 1942.
Exports included Switzerland (60) Yugoslavia (73), USSR (3), Japan (3), Romania(69), Bulgaria(19), Slovakia(14) amd Croata(n/k). 20 also transferred to Spain from Condor Legion

Thats all I have - no mention of E2 at all!

BTW - The Complete Book of Fighters, William Green & Gordon Swanborough, Salamander Books ltd, ISBM 1-85833-777-1

Several errors:
1) About 70% of 109 E-1 to E-3 carried the Db 601A-1 with 1100 PS (1-min rating, probably not usable in the 109, 5-min rating was 1020 PS), up to 30% carried the DB 601Aa with 1175 PS (1-min rating again, AFAIK 5-min rating was 1100 PS)
2) E-2 was not built for unknown reasons
3) MG 17 has 7.92 mm
4) E-4 got improved armor and MG FF/M cannons
5) No DB 601E in the 109E, the E-8 was the long range version of the E-1 with drop tank installation of E-7
6) E-3, E-4 and E-7 worked as upgrade points for older planes, some upgrades were fitted in the field and others in the repair shops (armor, armamament, radio equipment, drop tanks and others). Upgraded planes usually kept their original engine type unless it was damaged or no spare engine of that type available. Changing DB 601A-1 to Aa (and vice versa) happened quite often, replacing it with a DB 601N was considered as upgrade and changed the plane's designation.
7) The DB 601N had 1175PS (5-min rating, was restricted from usage during the first months, reliability problems as usual by new DB engine types (601E, 605A))

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:36 am**

ORIGINAL: Denniss

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

109V10 was effectively the 109E prototype, DB600Aa engine, flew June 1937. Several other Versuchs airframes flew with carburated DB600Aa, but V15 and subsequent a/c had direct fuel injected DB601A at 1175hp.
E1: initial series, 4x7.9mm mg. E3 similar, but 2x7.9mmmg, and 2 wing mounted 20mm MGFF cannon. 1540 E1 and 3 produced in 1938/9, with 45 in Spain by Feb 1939.
E4 - next prod version, with improved MGFF cannon, and E4/B was a fighter bomber version. E4/N replaced the 601Aa with the 601N at 1200hp.
E5, 6 both recce fighters (different camera fits).
E7 took over from the E4/N, and had provision for a 300l drop tank, E7/Trop being the tropicalised one.
E7/U2 had additional armour, and the E7/Z had GM-1 nitrous oxide injection.
E8 had DB601E at 1350hp and improved pilot armour.
E9 was recce version of E8
The last E series production was in early 1942.
Exports included Switzerland (60) Yugoslavia (73), USSR (3), Japan (3), Romania(69), Bulgaria(19), Slovakia(14) amd Croata(n/k). 20 also transferred to Spain from Condor Legion

Thats all I have - no mention of E2 at all!

BTW - The Complete Book of Fighters, William Green & Gordon Swanborough, Salamander Books ltd, ISBM 1-85833-777-1

I don't follow - please see comments below:

Several errors:
1) About 70% of 109 E-1 to E-3 carried the Db 601A-1 with 1100 PS (1-min rating, probably not usable in the 109, 5-min rating was 1020 PS), up to 30% carried the DB 601Aa with 1175 PS (1-min rating again, AFAIK 5-min rating was 1100 PS)

Fair enough - source?

2) E-2 was not built for unknown reasons

So why is this an error - my book doesn't mention E-2, quite correctly according to you?

3) MG 17 has 7.92 mm

I know, and your point is? I trust you weren't seriously objecting to the 0.02mm?

4) E-4 got improved armor and MG FF/M cannons

OK - the armour wasn't mentioned, but to quote my source: "with improved MGFF cannon"

5) No DB 601E in the 109E, the E-8 was the long range version of the E-1 with drop tank installation of E-7

OK - a difference. Source?

6) E-3, E-4 and E-7 worked as upgrade points for older planes, some upgrades were fitted in the field and others in the repair shops (armor, armamament, radio equipment, drop tanks and others). Upgraded planes usually kept their original engine type unless it was damaged or no spare engine of that type available. Changing DB 601A-1 to Aa (and vice versa) happened quite often, replacing it with a DB 601N was considered as upgrade and changed the plane's designation.

Mostly new information, and hence doesn't necessarily mean mine is an error. Whatever the field embodiment, the E-3, 4,and 7 will have had an "official" configuration, even if not fully converted in the field. Sources again?

7) The DB 601N had 1175PS (5-min rating, was restricted from usage during the first months, reliability problems as usual by new DB engine types (601E, 605A))

OK, but again is this actually implying errors in the other, or just different info?

I am not saying my data is automatically correct, however if you are going to say it is in error, you need to actually point out errors, and quote sources, not just provide different data.[;)]

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:53 am**

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/
http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/forums/index.php

And several other discussion boards with 109/190 experts

The difference between 7.9 and 7.92 mm is small but it IS a difference. Same for "improved MG FF" and MG FF/M.

A nice article about 109F with some 190 data: http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeis ... ?id=21&L=1

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:31 pm**

Denniss,

I tried asking the LW Experten about the E2/E3 question.

Twice.

They dodged it both times, and went off at tangents. [:(]

I don't think anyone really knows the score.

regards Otis

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