Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

The block of the t34 engine was made of aluminium. One of the reasons the germans decided against a 1:1 copy.

Yeah that guy was rambling.

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

From another thread...I would say its anectdotal but interesting. He claims something about plugs (spark plugs?). I thought diesels didn't need them. More than likely he is just rambling..

The Glow Plugs are heating elements that are used to heat up the combustion chamber to aid in igniting fuel in a cold engine. http://www.freeautoadvice.com/diesel/glow.html bet those Russians had some cans of ether too.

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

The block of the t34 engine was made of aluminium. One of the reasons the germans decided against a 1:1 copy.

Yeah that guy was rambling.

That judgement coming, in a discussion on Diesel engines, from someone not even knowing what a glow plug (Glühkerze) is has some real authority.

All the best

Andreas

ORIGINAL: Hentzau

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

From another thread...I would say its anectdotal but interesting. He claims something about plugs (spark plugs?). I thought diesels didn't need them. More than likely he is just rambling..

The Glow Plugs are heating elements that are used to heat up the combustion chamber to aid in igniting fuel in a cold engine. http://www.freeautoadvice.com/diesel/glow.html bet those Russians had some cans of ether too.

That could be right, starting diesel engines in the cold is a bitch. I used to work on a diesel tracked vehicle with an on-board ether injection system.

My understanding of glow plugs is that they are not meant to heat up the combustion chamber as much as they are meant to be the initial localized point of ignition during the power stroke. It would take forever for them to actually heat up an engine since the metallic block would just conduct the heat away.

I know the T34 had two methods of starting. One being compressed air. Some accounts mention building fires under the tanks rear armor to get the engine bay heated up.

ORIGINAL: Andreas1968

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

The block of the t34 engine was made of aluminium. One of the reasons the germans decided against a 1:1 copy.

Yeah that guy was rambling.

That judgement coming, in a discussion on Diesel engines, from someone not even knowing what a glow plug (Glühkerze) is has some real authority.

All the best

Andreas

Andreas, your snippy snide remarks could use some addressing.

Firstly, he mentions 'setting' plugs. Glow plugs need setting? It was obvious to me that he thinks that the T34 engine has spark plugs (which have gaps that are cleaned and set). I have forgotten more about automotive engineering than you will ever know.

From reading the following description (you would not expect a post from me without something interesting would you?) it would have to be an automatic feature. Since the decription states that the T34 uses an electric oil lubrication pump (!), I would think the initial starting current draw would be excessive. The T34's did not have an auxiliary motor to charge batteries so current draw is a large concern. More than likely , thats why there is a compressed air backup starting system. If glow plugs are 2 ohms each, and there's 12 cylinders, and each glow plug is sucking down some 6 amps each, then having them on would suck down 72 amps (assuming 12v but it could be 24v). The oil pump amperage is also considerable as is the starting motor. I would bet that you would only get so many 'electric' attempts followed by compressed air attempts.

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/T34tank1.html

The massive 38 liter, 500 horsepower V12 diesel engine and its powertrain and fuel tanks take up most of the room within the tank's body. A cold start of the engine is a most memorable undertaking in itself. Starting a large diesel with no pre-heating bears little resemblance to starting a motor car.

Grab the steering sticks. During dives into snowbanks snow pours in through the driver's hatch and can be seen on the dials in this picture, which was taken after rebuilding of the tank.

Starting the engine requires considerable skill and powers of concentration from the driver. It requires shamanistic communion with percisely those spirits inhabiting the engine which, once awakened, will emerge from the exhaust in the form of a cloud of impressive, blue smoke accompanied by a thunderous roar. That billowing cloud which almost seems to be alive, like a djinni finally set free after a thousand and one nights and a hundred and five days.

The starting up ritual begins with a press of a grounding button located at an arm's length from the driver. Provided the driver is strong enough this button will - with a genuine Russian 'clunk' sound - connect the tank's 24 volt batteries. As a reward for this considerable effort, the three dials in front of the driver will come to life. At this point it is already advisable to thank Providence or the almighty Socialistic spirit of International Fraternity, depending on one's beliefs. However this is but the first step in the demanding starting ritual of the T-34.

We will not here go into all the dogma and secrets surrounding the engine starting rites as this is a subject of considerable complexity and there exist multiple styles and schools of thought. Let us simply consider the ideal situation where the weather is warm enough that the engine requires no pre-heating with fuel heater, blow torch or diesel-soaked, burning rags. Let us also assume that there is enough juice in the batteries that the engine does not have to be set into motion with - God forbid - compressed air.

The next step is lubrication. While some people advocate lubricating the driver's innards with suitable beverages, we're here concerned only with lubricating the engine. The large diesel engine is equipped with an electrical oil pump which pushes oil into the bearings. On pressing a switch on the driver's left, the amp dial's needle plummets, accompanied by a satisfying hum from the pump. At this point the excitement is quite tangible; the moment of ignition is approaching !


Contact !

The driver slowly pushes the round tip of the gas lever forward. One more sharp intake of breath. Contemplating past successes, he presses the start button on the interior wall. Time seems to slow down, then to come to a complete halt. Then something seems to awaken. It announces its existence with a deep, soulful voice: "chunk, chunk, chunk chunk-a-chunk chunk puff CHUNK chunk-puff chunk-puff-CHUNK-CHUNK-CHUNK..."

The sound of the engine becomes more intense as the massive flywheel slowly gathers revolutions. The occasional puffs of smoke begin to have a rhythm, the sound is gradually transformed from an intensifying chunking into a steady, angry growl. The smoke escaping from the mufflers in the rear corners of the hull is thick enough that - if it were August - someone seeing it in the distance would immediately summon the fire department to put out a bush fire.

The end of the Scaup's stroll in Joensuu town center. Now it is time to climb onto the trailer..

The driver sits still, listening for any unusual sounds, smelling the air for any unusual odors, adjusting the idle using the manual gas lever beside his seat. He has his feelers out for any abnormal vibrations and keeps an eye on the oil pressure and battery charging gauges. If all is going well, this is the time to send a silent prayer of thanks to the merciful spirits of nature protecting the Scaup.

The big engine warms slowly, after all there are over sixty liters (almost 16 US gallons) of motor oil in it. We have to wait and stare at the engine's water and oil temperature gauges: is the warming up progressing normally ? If it is then our tracked friend will be ready for a spin when the engine is warm enough.

http://tanxheaven.com/ludob/t34engine/t34enginelb.htm

T34 12-Cylinder W-2-34 500HP Diesel Engine USSR
pictures by Lubos Dobda
Czech Republic

Pictures of engine

Its certainly looking like an aluminum head and block design here. Are the yellow lines on top the fuel injection and the yellow lines on the bottom the glow plugs? The other way around? The lines going to the valve covers, can they possibly be glow pugs? More than likely some lubrication for the valve train?

Where are the glowplugs?

The 'distributor' looking device in the pics connects to the lower yellow lines I believe. I would think that is the fuel distribution injection.

Nice shot of removed armor. Note that fuel cells are behind side armor. A AP shot through the sides (towards the rear) is another way a T34 'burns' from the side. Again, a AP shot penetrating sloped armor will deflect downward (come through the armor at a near right angle) and head towards the engine and transmission.

http://www.gjames.com.au/chris/t34/t34-service-2.html

Haven't read it yet. Looks good.

http://www.gjames.com.au/chris/t34/service.html

Edit: It appears the top lines going into the valve covers are the fuel injection lines. The 'distributor' is distributing the pressurized air for the air starting backup for the electric starter? I see no glow plugs yet. Glow plug technology was around in the 1930s I believe.

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

The above models were quickly removed from the battlefield, it was way to easy to attach sticky bombs to them [;)]

Sticky Bombs..........................LOL[:D]

Andreas, your snippy snide remarks could use some addressing.

Firstly, he mentions 'setting' plugs. Glow plugs need setting? It was obvious to me that he thinks that the T34 engine has spark plugs (which have gaps that are cleaned and set). I have forgotten more about automotive engineering than you will ever know.

Maybe obvious to you, but you are wrong. I just find it amusing that as someone who admits he knows very little about diesel engines you are feeling qualified to rubbish somebody else's statements as you did. Happy googling.

All the best

Andreas

You know Yoozername, in all of the matrix forums there is ONE overenthusiastic poster, who feels himself at home (probably was among the first ones to post there), BUT they also have a common feature. They have a style which can be best desribed as irritating. Well here you are this 'First to post host'. You have a nice collection of T34 pictures so what? Please refain from this style in thew future.

Refain from diatribes. Or just work on them a bit longer. I enjoy a good diatribe. But glad you liked the pictures.

I do not see any glowplugs in the engine or manuals for the T34. Can anyone else verify this? I will look at the electrical schematic which should show them.

Having fuel injection (which diesels do) is a risky business in an engine bay of a armored vehicle. A punctured line will result in a catstrophic loss of fuel pressure and a massive fuel leak. A carburator can run at a much lower fuel pressure. If you have ever disconnected a pressurized fuel injection line you know that teh fuel does not spurt out but will be released in a mist.

The one source (Finn) states that he uses an electric pump for oil pressure (!). This would be quite a pump if anyone is familiar with electric motors and pumping viscous fluids. I also wonder if its just a pre-oiler since running an electrc pump full time would require a continuous duty mother.

One source states that T34 went from forged to cast wheels and drive. More than likely so as to increase production. This at the sake of protection. The Germans went the other way when they found that their drive wheels were being bent like pretzels by HE and trees, etc.

Of all the automotive details, I would think the inclusion of an exhaust 'smoke' graphic (when T34 accelerate primarily) might be nice. If the game does model obscurants (smoke/dust/etc) then this might be modeled also.

Sorry about the size but this is a cross sectional drawing of the cylinder head. No glowplug. It would have to be in the area where the piston does not cross.

I think that person's anectodal story about seeing a truck that he thought had a T34 engine in it can be doubted. Sorry Andreas. No glowplug.

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Of all the automotive details, I would think the inclusion of an exhaust 'smoke' graphic (when T34 accelerate primarily) might be nice. If the game does model obscurants (smoke/dust/etc) then this might be modeled also.

We have exhaust smoke in the game, it is generic for all units though.

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

The block of the t34 engine was made of aluminium. One of the reasons the germans decided against a 1:1 copy.

The Tiger I had an aluminum block (initially) with cast iron heads. I would suggest that the Germans did not want a diesel engine. They needed a more powerfull engine.

http://www.alanhamby.com/maybach.html

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Of all the automotive details, I would think the inclusion of an exhaust 'smoke' graphic (when T34 accelerate primarily) might be nice. If the game does model obscurants (smoke/dust/etc) then this might be modeled also.

We have exhaust smoke in the game, it is generic for all units though.

I do not think that petrol (gasoline) engines do that to the degree that a T34 diesel will. I can link to many photos of German tanks in winter weather NOT spewing exhaust. Some accounts state that at night, flames might shoot out of the exhaust when gunning the engine, but even in the 40s, gasoline engine technology with carbs had a reasonably 'clean' burn.

But, more importantly, does the smoke graphic represent some obscuration effect in the game?

http://home.comcast.net/~markconrad/10TD1941.html

Very interesting read considering the early time frame and Soviet perspective.

TECHNICAL REPORT FROM THE 10th TANK DIVISION, AUGUST 1941

[The original Russian transcript came to me from Mr. Charles Sharp. It is a report signed by the commander of the 10th Tank Division, dated 2 August 1941.)
\

The division’s soldiers and commanders spoke of their tanks as very reliable machines. But along with these qualities they had the following defects:

1) For the KV tanks:

a) Under the impact of shells and large-caliber bullets, the turret ring and armored cupolas can jam.

b) The diesel engine has little reserve power, resulting in it being overloaded and overheating.

c) The main and side clutches break down.

2. For the T-34:

a) Hull armor is penetrated at 300 to 400 meters by a 37-mm antitank round. Side armor is penetrated by a 20-mm antitank round. When crossing ditches the low set of the vehicle causes its nose to dig in, and traction with the ground is insufficient due to the relative smoothness of the tracks.

b) With a direct hit by a shell the driver’s front hatch collapses.

c) The vehicle’s treads are weak—any round takes them off.

d) The main and side clutches break down.

http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=15850

Movies of a Panther, no exhaust at all

Tiger moving in winter weather, no clouds of smoke behind it.

A side note is that these motors WERE invisable polluters for sure. In fact deadly in some cases. Lightly wounded loaded behind turret were sometimes gassed to death by carbon monoxide poisoning.