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The Kunming-Hekou line (468km) is the railway between Kunming and Vietnam border nearby Hekou. In 1903 the Qing dynasty and France made the railway construction treaty. Already there was the railway of a meter gauge between Hanoi and Lao Cai, off Hekou, so the train has been able to drive from Hanoi to Kunming after completion. The line — designed by the French so that they could tap Yunnan's mineral resources for their colonies in Indo-china — has been cut during World War II, restored in 1957, cut again in 1979, and reopened in 1996. Landslide put the Kunming/Hanoi out of service in 2003 and still out so far.

I stipulate all this is true and correct. In the third world, a rail line cut by natural events often dies. The Philippine line died north of Mt Pinatubo.
The Panama line is dead - the rails sunk too much. SOP. Unless someone invests in a rail line, it will not be reborn after something big cuts it. And mountains exist because slow but powerful forces make them. Volcanos, rising strata due to tectonic plates going over/under each other - these things can do what we humans would find hard. The significant fact about this line is that - late in WWII - when the rails were partly lifted - it was an efficient line of march used by the French escaping the massacre at Hanoi.

Let's rip up the rail and march an army down this...I guess you could call it a trail.

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ORIGINAL: el cid again

It appears that Cid and Keregulen are actually in agreement. K's response was to Sneer's comment that the rail line should be represented as a road, not a trail. K stated that since the tracks were torn up, depicting it as a trail is reasonable.

Cid is also stating that it should be depicted as a trail where the tracks were removed, and as a road where the tracks still existed... sometimes we talk past each other without noticing...

I guess we need to explain "Andrew Brown map code" to make this clear:
a secondary rail line is represented as a road - so Sneer has it right - the "road" represents a secondary rail line. When K says "the tracks were torn up" he means "don't represent it as a road." And to the extent he means just that, K is also right. But it appears in both threads he does not want to draw the trail - he likes the map as it is (was). See the other thread for amplified comments making this clear. I added the line as a road in Indochina but as a trail near the border - not far from Kunming - where it is road again - Kunming feeds other hexes and is a rail center.

And again you seem to be missing my point. Yes, Sneer was asking for the map to be drawn as a road, to indicate the light duty railline. Keregulen replied that since the railline had been removed it was more proper to depict as a trail, which is also what you have said. Why the need to adopt the "school marm" attitude? Keregulen and I are agreeing with you...

I would leave the hex devoid of transportation in light of this quote and the above photos...


From

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/timeline/411101amie.html

4. Physical difficulties in the way of a Yunnan invasion are considerable, the most important being the terrain. The best corridor is that followed by the Yunnan meter-gauge railway from the border at Laokai to Kunming. This is a tortuous route along the sides of deep gorges, from an elevation of 305 feet at Laokai to 4,500 at Mengtze on the Unnan plateau in a distance of 110 miles. (Airline, about 75 miles.) The dozens of bridges and tunnels have presumably been destroyed; the Chinese report that they have completely demolished the railway including the roadbed for a distance of 50 miles north of the border and partially for an additional 15 miles. There is a trail about 30 miles west of and roughly parallel to the railroad, but there is no road south of Mengtze. Only two other corridors exist, according to the Chinese Minister of War: one, an old road parallel to and about 30 miles west of the railway; the other about 120 miles east of the railway. The same source says that lateral travel between these routes is impossible because of the ruggedness of the terrain, and that the Chinese have rendered impassable all three routes of approach. Possible use of the valleys of the larger river appears remote.

The Red River flows from the Tali Lake, just north of the Burma Road 250 miles west of Kunming, southeastward into Indo-China at Laokai. It is not navigable north of Laokai. There is a trail running northward along the river to a point 60 miles above Laokai, where it branches northeast to Mengtze. A footpath extends on up the river all way to Tali. The terrain is extremely rugged. From the scanty information available, the valleys of the Black and Makong Rivers would be even less accessible.

And again you seem to be missing my point. Yes, Sneer was asking for the map to be drawn as a road, to indicate the light duty railline. Keregulen replied that since the railline had been removed it was more proper to depict as a trail, which is also what you have said. Why the need to adopt the "school marm" attitude? Keregulen and I are agreeing with you...

Too much time inside computers I guess. I interpret words too literally sometimes. I am hardly unhappy to be agreed with. But I think Treespider may not be trying to say the line should be there. Since it was there, and was used, this seems odd. In point of fact we have a wierd situation in the game - we can never destroy ANY bridge - nothing - not even the Great Bridge up at Nanjing. Not sure why this particular line should be an exception? Now you want to give us engineers who can build and repair - I will be fine with demolition by any means as well. But that is for another version I think. By the standards of this game, this line should be there - and apparently if you use the new maps it will be. Mine - FYI - is available - and has been for over a week - but you need a "secret" address to get it just now. It is available on request however and it will work with CHS 155.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

And again you seem to be missing my point. Yes, Sneer was asking for the map to be drawn as a road, to indicate the light duty railline. Keregulen replied that since the railline had been removed it was more proper to depict as a trail, which is also what you have said. Why the need to adopt the "school marm" attitude? Keregulen and I are agreeing with you...

Too much time inside computers I guess. I interpret words too literally sometimes. I am hardly unhappy to be agreed with. But I think Treespider may not be trying to say the line should be there. Since it was there, and was used, this seems odd. In point of fact we have a wierd situation in the game - we can never destroy ANY bridge - nothing - not even the Great Bridge up at Nanjing. Not sure why this particular line should be an exception? Now you want to give us engineers who can build and repair - I will be fine with demolition by any means as well. But that is for another version I think. By the standards of this game, this line should be there - and apparently if you use the new maps it will be. Mine - FYI - is available - and has been for over a week - but you need a "secret" address to get it just now. It is available on request however and it will work with CHS 155.

Can you provide documentation of when it was used from Dec 7, 1941 through August 16, 1945?

So far I have provided two maps and a quote from a paper prepared for the chief of Staff... as well as some photos depicting the ruggedness of the terrain.

You have provided an obscure reference to some french stragglers escaping a massacre at the end of the war.

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ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

ORIGINAL: el cid again

It appears that Cid and Keregulen are actually in agreement. K's response was to Sneer's comment that the rail line should be represented as a road, not a trail. K stated that since the tracks were torn up, depicting it as a trail is reasonable.

Cid is also stating that it should be depicted as a trail where the tracks were removed, and as a road where the tracks still existed... sometimes we talk past each other without noticing...

I guess we need to explain "Andrew Brown map code" to make this clear:
a secondary rail line is represented as a road - so Sneer has it right - the "road" represents a secondary rail line. When K says "the tracks were torn up" he means "don't represent it as a road." And to the extent he means just that, K is also right. But it appears in both threads he does not want to draw the trail - he likes the map as it is (was). See the other thread for amplified comments making this clear. I added the line as a road in Indochina but as a trail near the border - not far from Kunming - where it is road again - Kunming feeds other hexes and is a rail center.

And again you seem to be missing my point. Yes, Sneer was asking for the map to be drawn as a road, to indicate the light duty railline. Keregulen replied that since the railline had been removed it was more proper to depict as a trail, which is also what you have said. Why the need to adopt the "school marm" attitude? Keregulen and I are agreeing with you...

Yup,

you and Forrest are correct (and I'm - of course - aware of Andrew's map and the "secondary" rail lines and their representation on the AB map).

I was indeed thinking that a trail would be a more appropiate representation. However, after having looked at the jpegs posted by Forrest, it seems to be even less of a trail than the Kododa trail (and the terrain there IS rugged, just talked to a friend who returned from this area last December - and the Chinese did not gain much terrain there against the Vietnamese in their 1979 "punitive" expedition). Trail or not a trail? At least the US staff feared a Japanese thrust along this route into Yunnan, but they probably did not know much about this area.

K

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
I was indeed thinking that a trail would be a more appropiate representation. However, after having looked at the jpegs posted by Forrest, it seems to be even less of a trail than the Kododa trail (and the terrain there IS rugged, just talked to a friend who returned from this area last December - and the Chinese did not gain much terrain there against the Vietnamese in their 1979 "punitive" expedition). Trail or not a trail? At least the US staff feared a Japanese thrust along this route into Yunnan, but they probably did not know much about this area.

Here is another map of the area, from the 1945 national Geographic map. It shows, besides the removed railway, a separate road route (in red), so I think that using a trail (I suspect that the road route would not be of high quality in this part of the world) is not unreasonable.

Historically the "Red River" route between Haiphong area and Yunnan was real. Just looking at modern times, the French involvement in Vietnam was really driven by the commerical opportunities that arose from specifically this trade. And "Chinese Bandits" operated in this area to impact that trade, ultimately driving the French into "protecting" Vietnam (i.e. themselves) which drove their full occupation and control bny late 19C. So since the river traffic is not allowed in the game, that might drive an enhancement of the land route, remember the land routes have to include the river routes to some extent, in this system.

IMO given the current game design...you guys may be opening up a can of worms by supplying a transportation route in this hex. Why wouldn't Japanese players want to attack down this route now to block the Burma road. I contend they did not IRL because as was pointed out in the Memorandum to the Chief of Staff the terrain was too rugged.

I refer you to the transportation route map I provided earlier in this thread (post#4) ...not even the secondary roads link in that map.

Someone once said that just about every hex on this map IRL has some form of rail, road or trail in it...the question is which of these to include. I don't have a problem with running the line to the border. I do have a problem with the one hex just inside China having any form of transportation symbol.

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Historically the "Red River" route between Haiphong area and Yunnan was real. Just looking at modern times, the French involvement in Vietnam was really driven by the commerical opportunities that arose from specifically this trade. And "Chinese Bandits" operated in this area to impact that trade, ultimately driving the French into "protecting" Vietnam (i.e. themselves) which drove their full occupation and control bny late 19C. So since the river traffic is not allowed in the game, that might drive an enhancement of the land route, remember the land routes have to include the river routes to some extent, in this system.

Once again in regards to river traffic...

The Red River flows from the Tali Lake, just north of the Burma Road 250 miles west of Kunming, southeastward into Indo-China at Laokai. It is not navigable north of Laokai. There is a trail running northward along the river to a point 60 miles above Laokai, where it branches northeast to Mengtze. A footpath extends on up the river all way to Tali. The terrain is extremely rugged. From the scanty information available, the valleys of the Black and Makong Rivers would be even less accessible.

Refering to the transportation route map in post #4 you will find Laokai situated right on the border between China and Vietnam. Again run the transportation route to the border ...but stop at the border.

Can you provide documentation of when it was used from Dec 7, 1941 through August 16, 1945?

So far I have provided two maps and a quote from a paper prepared for the chief of Staff... as well as some photos depicting the ruggedness of the terrain.

You have provided an obscure reference to some french stragglers escaping a massacre at the end of the war

Sorry. I thought that in this forum the history of the Foreign Legion would be well known. Nor would I have believed you would use the term "some French stragglers" to refer to an orderly march by a regiment. [Stragglers implies perhaps ones or tens of people, separately, not a military command marching in formation with all its gear.] You can find an American historian (Stanley Karnow) mentioning it in his history Vietnam. You can find it in specialist books on the FFL too - For example Osprey's the Men At Arms Series No 325 - The French Foreign Legion 1914-1945. I regard this famous incident - the FFL is quite proud it evaded the murder of French military units in Indochina - which otherwise was quite general. [The Japanese invited all the "allied" officers to dinner. "Not long after the first course" - simultaneously all over Indochina - they were shot. The units - mainly colonial locals - were then disarmed and interned.] - back on track - I regard this famous incident as merely an indication the line was quite viable - not an exhaustive list of every occasion on which someone used it. Frankly I think it ought to have been used as the axis of an offensive - and it surely should be on the map for that purpose. And as a two way street - it is one of two reasons Japan must garrison Hanoi - not just a threat to Kunming from the South. It is a great deal more practical to relay rail along a surveyed route with bridges and tunnels and foundation already built than it is to build the Burma-Siam RR. And of couse you don't need any rails to march or dive trucks. Further - and this needs to be said - most of the rail was not torn up. KMT did not send men all the way to Hanoi tearing up track! IF they did, the fact they could would show that it was a very feasible way to move.

Thank you for the references on the FFL...I look them up.

It is a great deal more practical to relay rail along a surveyed route with bridges and tunnels and foundation already built than it is to build the Burma-Siam RR. And of couse you don't need any rails to march or dive trucks. Further - and this needs to be said - most of the rail was not torn up. KMT did not send men all the way to Hanoi tearing up track! IF they did, the fact they could would show that it was a very feasible way to move.

But those bridges, tunnels and foundations had been destroyed by the Chinese in an approximately 60 mile stretch from the border to Mengtze. Remember I am not advocating complete disolution of the entire path just one hex....the hex on the Chinese side of the border...which should probably be mountain. I would venture the Chinese did quite a number on this section of the track as it was not repaired for 15 years after the the war.

But those bridges, tunnels and foundations had been destroyed by the Chinese in an approximately 60 mile stretch from the border to Mengtze. Remember I am not advocating complete disolution of the entire path just one hex....the hex on the Chinese side of the border...which should probably be mountain. I would venture the Chinese did quite a number on this section of the track as it was not repaired for 15 years after the the war.

As for time of repair, remember how the Vietnamese feel about the Chinese. [Ho: "I would rather eat French shit for another century than eat Chinese shit for another thousand years."] This was a COLONIAL line, and after WWII it was in the Viet Ming area - there was not much investment in moving things (other than opium) in NW Tonkin at that time.

We do appear in harmony - surprisingly. I did add mountains between Kunming and Vietnam - and that is a big reason a trail through them is vital. And our hexes are about 60 miles in size - so the missing rail is well represented by that trail - through very defensible mountains. Only at Kunming itself - and south of the gap - is there "road" = minor rail line. This has been done for some time. I just asked the restriction on the RHS map be lifted - it is on the rogusmarine site. Take a look. Or Cobra or I can send you the art.

You can find it in specialist books on the FFL too - For example Osprey's the Men At Arms Series No 325 - The French Foreign Legion 1914-1945.

In the Osprey book...

In March 1945, the Japanese attacked the French Garrisons without warning. Survivors of the Legions 5c REI formed the bulk of a column which managed to fight its way north into Nationalist China.

Is this one of the references from which you are extrapolating that the French used the Kunming-Hanoi railway?

Some more on the FFL...


From the net:

http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl=en ... D%26sa%3DN

5. Infantry regiment of the Fremdenlegion (5 e régiment more étranger d'infanterie - 5 e R.E.I. -), the "regiment of Tonkin", was nearly completely destroyed by Japan under ignoring the agreements over an armistice in March 1945. By an adventurous retreat it succeeded to the few survivors to collect to China to pierce itself around itself there on 6 February 1946.

Also from the net:

http://cervens.net/legionbbs/showthread.php?t=23

The only English book about 5th REI in French Indochina that I was able to come upon or hear about is Edmund Murray: "I Was Churchill's Bodyguard", London: W. H. Allen. 1987. Murray was a member of the 5th REI in 1945 (also a member of a secret resistance group which picked weapons containers dropped to the French in Indochina by the Allies) and he was involved on the long march to China. But from what Peter [Lyderik] has told me he only shortly describes his march to China. Unfortunately all litterature about 5th REI is in French. There are three or four French books about 5th REI and there are some details also in Ernst's Frey memoires (in German language) about his time he had spent as an Austrian legionnaire with the 5th REI and later Vietminh in the French Indochina during 1940s.

Dang..I am amazed what people on this forum can come up with.

If one ripped up rail, but left the bridges..then it would be quite a good trail..otherwise...