Matrix Games Forums

Originally posted by RevRick:
Okay, I'll weigh in on this one again on this thread. The 15 ship limit on TF's is TOO LOW!!!

I still haven't heard a clear explanation about this. If the 15 ship limit is for Task Groupings as part of a larger TF, then that could make some sense. You have your heavy surface stuff in one TG and your carriers, plus some ships with strong AA defense, in another. For surface action the TG with your own surface combat ships do the work. If the CVs come under air attack all TGs in the hex with AA ability contribute to the carrier's AA defense. That sounds pretty flexible, but I'm still not sure if a breakup into groupings of TFs is what Matrix is talking about. This issue applies even more so to WitP.

A note on US Navy organization: The USN has 4 elements of it's tactical (afloat) forces: Task Force (TF), Task Group (TG), Task Element (TE), and Task Unit (TU). A Task Force can contain dozens of ships and aircraft, but they may never occupy the same body of water at the same time. TF's will break down into several TG's, which break down into TE's, and even TU's (single ships). Meaning that a US TF may have 60 ships, but they aren't in the same 15 ship limit "Task Force" in the game. It becomes a command and control issue with the numbers of ships. Trying to tactically control 15 ships in itself is very difficult. Now try it with only flags during the day and flashing light at night. The Japanese may have had over 20 ships at Pearl, but they started that trip at peace! When did 6 CV's operate within sight of one another again? I can think of no other time. Bottom line is 15 ships in a TF is fine, and let DD's and DE's count for one slot each.

Originally posted by Ramjet:
A note on US Navy organization: The USN has 4 elements of it's tactical (afloat) forces: Task Force (TF), Task Group (TG), Task Element (TE), and Task Unit (TU). A Task Force can contain dozens of ships and aircraft, but they may never occupy the same body of water at the same time. TF's will break down into several TG's, which break down into TE's, and even TU's (single ships). Meaning that a US TF may have 60 ships, but they aren't in the same 15 ship limit "Task Force" in the game. It becomes a command and control issue with the numbers of ships. Trying to tactically control 15 ships in itself is very difficult. Now try it with only flags during the day and flashing light at night. The Japanese may have had over 20 ships at Pearl, but they started that trip at peace! When did 6 CV's operate within sight of one another again? I can think of no other time. Bottom line is 15 ships in a TF is fine, and let DD's and DE's count for one slot each.

First, they've already said they handle destroyers as separate ships, not a pack of four as in PW.

Late war TFs did have much more than 15 ships, this is what started the debate in the first place. Given the scale WitP, at 60 miles per hex, tactical groupings could be separate, but still in the same hex, so there isn't much point to representing the smaller units, the TE and TU. I don't know what the scale is for UV.

How about this. a TF is composed of multiple TGs, the total number of TGs is controlled by the skill of the TF commander (and perhaps the date as well?). Lets say 1-5 TGs is possible. A TG is composed of about 12-24 individual ships, the actual number is decided by the skill of the TG leader if there is one, otherwise the TF commander skill is used (again, maybe date as well). The TGs are handled in a way to make the process flexible and simple. So first of all TGs are always assumed to be in the same hex (definitely for WitP, and maybe UV as well?). Second, if a TF is engaged in surface combat for example, any surface combat TGs that are part of the TF defend the TF. Air attacks against the TF are handled first by any carrier based planes in the TF, and all TGs of the TF, if they have appropiate types of ships, contribute to the AA defense of any TGs of the TF. We might also have one or more "picket" TGs composed of DDs guarding the TF but at a distance from it. "Pickets" would be needed to warn the TF of incoming air attacks, and for ASW. Because of its distance from the rest of the TF, these "picket" TGs would be more vulnerable to air attack, compared to the other types of TGs. This would improve the realism, as DDs on picket duty *were* more vulnerable.


[This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited February 19, 2001).]

Considering the length of a turn, I think it would be an advantage to have the ability to form surface combat task groups automatically. Just as was actually done. In particular, we know we want the BB's as powerful anti-aircraft defenses unless threatened by enemy surface forces. The player should be able to designate which vessels will form the surface force, being able to pull these ships from any hex where the predesignated flagship is or any adjacent hex. When an enemy force is detected, the player should be presented with several options, which could be preplanned or, I think, trigger some form of Windows task box. Fast carriers might want to maintain a fixed standoff distance against detected opposition. The presence of an invasion convoy to protect changes everything. From a gamers standpoint, it might be better to have to preplan these actions over a 24 hour period. What to do? What to do?

Paul

I like Ed and Paul's suggestions, taken together. One of the historical events that is hard to model is how Oldendorf ran the battle of Suraigo Straight from the U.S. side. The outer screening forces of PT's and DD's hit the Japanese on the way in, sinking Fuso, then the inner screen attacked Kirishima and Mogami while the battle line hammered away. The 15 ship limit really doesn't allow for this kind of engagement to be modeled, while a system modeled after Paul and Ed's suggestions would.
Just my $.02 worth