Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: hank

Just another stinking suggestion but ... if there is a terrain feature that is specifically a hex side feature (like the escarpment thingy someone else mentioned above) what problems other than map art would be caused if you modified that hex side feature to mimic rivers?

This has been done before with escarpment. You get the defensive effects more or less, but fording and bridge destruction won't work, and mountain units will be great at crossing rivers.

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

You could just put your defenders in the town.

But then they are always considered to be on the same side of the river as the attackers--even if simultaneously attacked from opposite sides!--because the game only assesses a penalty when attacking FROM a river hex.

For a unit in the town, the river simply does not exist as a defensive factor. And when leaving the town (regardless of which side he came from), the unit is ALWAYS considered to be making a crossing. That doesn't seem right.

Consider the absurd situation if you have hexside rivers: Either the town is on one side of the river, and half the time the player can't use the town without sticking his unit on the wrong side of the river, or else the designer is forced to place two urban hexes, which is usually excessive.

It's definitely not as excessive as treating rivers as if they are 5km (or 50km!) wide. And aren't real towns generally on one side of a river or another?

I'm not trying to be snarky--it's just a design problem for me.

I recently posted three small, solitaire ACOW scenarios specially modified for Hex Side Rivers. Used the replacement river tiles to replace the rivers, not the escarpment tiles as in earlier experiments. If you have ACOW and are curious how it plays with hex side rivers, you might given them a look.

Haven’t had much feedback, but the first one to be posted on Wargamer has about 300 downloads. Guess that means there are about 300 curious people in the world.

Eventually I'll probably upgrade them for TOAW III.

Regards, RhinoBones

GMT's board wargame "Ardennes '44" makes use of hexside rivers, but where there are small towns straddling a river, the river goes in-hex and there's a defensive benefit for the town. This is the ultimate solution and, perhaps because TOAW currently models in-hex rivers, if we were allowed to mix where the river is on any given hex, we could attain that same solution.

It would take some new programming to accommodate both types on the same map, but the dividend would be awesome. [8D]

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

GMT's board wargame "Ardennes '44" makes use of hexside rivers, but where there are small towns straddling a river, the river goes in-hex and there's a defensive benefit for the town. This is the ultimate solution and, perhaps because TOAW currently models in-hex rivers, if we were allowed to mix where the river is on any given hex, we could attain that same solution.

It would take some new programming to accommodate both types on the same map, but the dividend would be awesome. [8D]

Any addition of hexside rivers would by necessity have to continue to allow in-hex rivers, otherwise the entire back catalogue of scenarios would have to be updated. I don't think that would be a programming challenge as compared to adding the hexside rivers, except for the need for a few extra graphics.

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

I recently posted three small, solitaire ACOW scenarios specially modified for Hex Side Rivers.

RhinoBones: Can you let me know when you updated your scenarios to TOAW III. I’ll like to try them out.

I'll try, but no promises. I tend to forget things and my notes usually get lost. Should be showing up towards the end of July.

I'm sure that TOAW III players will periodically be checking the scenario archives at SZO, Wargamer and Rugged Defense. Suggest you make it a habit to check every day (I have) and you can be one of the first to get everything that is new for TOAW III.

I also suspect that in the next couple of months quite a few updated, and a few new, TOAW III scenarios will be posted.

Regards, RhinoBones

ORIGINAL: rhinobones
Should be showing up towards the end of July.

Thanks... I'm looking forward to trying them out

I've never used riverine units the regular way.
But I like the way I can make coastal ferries as riverine units and place super-rivers along the coast to govern and restrict their movement ie between location A and B.

Backt to topic, I'd like an option to use both in-hex and hex-side rivers in a scenario.

Erik

When you are making a detailed map and realize that depending on scale, rivers are 2.5-50km wide in TOAW, you really start dreaming about hexside-rivers...

ORIGINAL: geozero
To play with the same game engine, graphics and GUI for nearly 8 years is not IMO wise from a gaming perspective as well as a marketing perspective.

As long as there's no real competition, games similar to TOAW, people will be happy playing it at least for another 8 years.

ORIGINAL: geozero
I think that gamers want more out of their games.

Really? Never noticed that. [:D]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
Consider the absurd situation if you have hexside rivers: Either the town is on one side of the river, and half the time the player can't use the town without sticking his unit on the wrong side of the river,

What's absurd about it? There are any number of historical actions hwere this happened - Borodino for example - the town was on hte "French" side of the River at that battle, and the Russian Jaegers in it had to flee over the bridge.

At Leipzig the entire town was on one side of the river and the French army suffered massive losses trying to flee over the bridges.

At Dresden the town was on both sides of the river.

Arnhem is on both sides of the river IIRC, while hte town of Cassino is only on one side.

or else the designer is forced to place two urban hexes, which is usually excessive.

If a river passes through a town that is small then you can have a minor built up area on both sides even at a major scale - if it is only a hamlet then have nothing - just a bridge.

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

What exactly do hexside rivers gain you, that hex rivers don't? Definitive positioning, with respect to what side of the river you're on? You have that with hex rivers. Just position your units on one side or the other. Plus, with hex rivers, you have the state of being "in transition" or straddling the river, which you cannot achieve with hex-side rivers.

Hex-side rivers offer no substantial game play enhancements that hex rivers lack, and finally...

...hex-side rivers are ugly!

2.5-50km wide rivers are ugly. With hexside rivers bridgehead situations make more sense. The state of being "in transition" is an insignificant factor at operational level.

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Hex-side rivers offer no substantial game play enhancements that hex rivers lack, and finally...

Hexside rivers would allow for better maps at higher scales. To take one example, Jeremy finally(after much cajoling) had to delete the James, York, and possibly(can't remember)the Rappahannock as well from the map of Virginia. In hex rivers gave all sorts of weird effects.

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

GMT's board wargame "Ardennes '44" makes use of hexside rivers, but where there are small towns straddling a river, the river goes in-hex and there's a defensive benefit for the town. This is the ultimate solution and, perhaps because TOAW currently models in-hex rivers, if we were allowed to mix where the river is on any given hex, we could attain that same solution.

It would take some new programming to accommodate both types on the same map, but the dividend would be awesome. [8D]

If I could only get Mark (my brother) Simonitch to quit designing board games and join the 21st century, this kind of stuff might make it into mainstream computer hex wargames.

Come to think of it, why are we still dealing with hexes?[;)]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

What's absurd about it? There are any number of historical actions hwere this happened - Borodino for example - the town was on hte "French" side of the River at that battle, and the Russian Jaegers in it had to flee over the bridge.

Most towns are on both sides of the river, but you can put them on one side of it with in-hex rivers anyway.

If a river passes through a town that is small then you can have a minor built up area on both sides even at a major scale - if it is only a hamlet then have nothing - just a bridge.

What if the attack is parallel with the river rather than perpendicular to it? Then you've grossly exaggerated the military significance of the town.