Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: treespider

It appears the correct ships are at Palau vis-a-vis the ones that departed Palau on the 17th carrying the Sakaguchi Detachment (or 56th BDE if you prefer).

Sakaguchi Detachment and Miura Detachment were transported on Army Transports Hankow, Havana, Hiteru, Kanko, Kuretake, Liverpool, Teiryu, and Yamatsuki Maru in the Davao operation.

In the CHS ship database, only Havana, Liverpool, and Teiryu Maru are present at Palau at start. Yamatsuki Maru is missing in the database and the rest starts at various ports in Japan (Kanko Maru at Amami).

Thanks! I stupidly posted my reply after I saw the ships you listed...Evidently they are not correctly positioned.

In researching this (and I am at work at the moment and away from my sources) is CL Jintsu at Palau? IIRC I think in stock it is involved in the Malaya operation...whereas it should be at palau with iirc Desron 2

ORIGINAL: treespider

There is no confusion about the Sakaguchi Detachment being a part of the 56th Division....it is sometimes refered to as the 56th Brigade, it is sometimes listed as the 56th Infantry group and other times it is referred to as the Sakaguchi Detachment.

Simply to make this clear once and for all: Major-General Sakaguchi was the Infantry Commander of the 56th Division. The position of "Infantry Commander" in Japanese divisions was a carryover from the old (pre-war) brigade structure of Japanese divisions. The Infantry Commanders and their staffs (in divisions were this position still existed) were eventually used in the formation of new unist (mostly "Expeditionary Units" and "Independent Mixed Brigades"). There was no 56th Brigade and their is no connection to the 56th Independent Mixed Brigade formed in 1944.

ORIGINAL: treespider
What is in question is the location of this unit on December 7/8. I had been under the impression that this unit was in Palau on Dec7/8 and was surprised to se it moved to Japan. However there are some sources that give its location on Dec 7/8 - Niehorster places it in Japan and Hayashi and Rottman (who used Hayashi as a source) places it on Palau. All of the other sources offer anecdotal evience but nothing clear-cut as to the location of the unit on Dec 7/8.

Yup, this is the question.

ORIGINAL: treespider
It is possible the unit was in Japan on dec 7/8 and loaded very shoirtly thereafter to arrive at Palau prior to dec 17 from where it is known to have departed. - This is the niehorster scenario.

It is possible the unit is in Palau on Dec7/8 - this is the Hayashi scenario.

It is also possible the unit was loaded on transports enroute to Palau on Dec 7/8. -A meld of the two...

What we are looking for is a definitve record of where the unit was on Dec 7/8.

IMO it should be Palau.

[/quote]

As we still don't have a definitive record some points against the Palau version:

Because the Sakaguchi Detachment belonged to the 56th Division (which was part of 25th Army and went to Malaya/Burma) it seems that it was diverted to other tasks because the forces of 16th Army were not strong enough for the tasks given to it. 2nd Division (then the only division of 16th Army) was still on Honshu on Dec 7th. The question is: Why? Answers could be (a) lack of shipping or (b) if major combat units (regiments and above) would have been moved before the outbreak of the war from Japan, the Allies could have been alerted. Ostensibly it is difficult to cover the movement of large formations in peacetime. The Malaya and Luzon operations originally included formations that were located in Indochina. Many (big) formations that took part in the occupation of the SRA/PI/Malaya were still in China and/or Japan on Dec 7th.

IMO it doesn't necessarily matter to me if it starts in Japan or in Palau or on ship enroute...However if it is placed in Japan it needs to be co-located with shipping...in particularly if played with a historical first turn.

As it stand now I do not believe there is enough shipping in Fukuoka to load the 56th on Dec 8th and move it to Palau in time to depart on Decmeber 17th.

ORIGINAL: treespider

IMO it doesn't necessarily matter to me if it starts in Japan or in Palau or on ship enroute...However if it is placed in Japan it needs to be co-located with shipping...in particularly if played with a historical first turn.

As it stand now I do not believe there is enough shipping in Fukuoka to load the 56th on Dec 8th and move it to Palau in time to depart on Decmeber 17th.

I did run a test. Played the historical start, and THEN ran some transports to Fukuoka and loaded up ... managed to arrive Palau PM of 17 Dec in game dates. But remember what the game calls 17 Dec is really 18 Dec west of the IDL. But if Andrew wants to position some boats there I have no problem with that. Clearly they would've been there !

Yamatsuki Maru will be in all RHS scenarios from 4.04 - which regretfully may release soon - if we get this carrier air group stuff sorted fully.

Kereguelen is more or less correct - except that the position of infantry group commander remained in divisions - and never went away. There is a similar office in many armies. And we know there was no 56th brigade as such - but Joe needed a convenient shorthand and this one is found in many histories. We cannot type out that long name in our database!

ORIGINAL: treespider

IMO it doesn't necessarily matter to me if it starts in Japan or in Palau or on ship enroute...However if it is placed in Japan it needs to be co-located with shipping...in particularly if played with a historical first turn.

As it stand now I do not believe there is enough shipping in Fukuoka to load the 56th on Dec 8th and move it to Palau in time to depart on Decmeber 17th.

Does anyone have a list already compiled of which ships should be co-located with the 56th if this is done?

Thanks,
Andrew

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: treespider

IMO it doesn't necessarily matter to me if it starts in Japan or in Palau or on ship enroute...However if it is placed in Japan it needs to be co-located with shipping...in particularly if played with a historical first turn.

As it stand now I do not believe there is enough shipping in Fukuoka to load the 56th on Dec 8th and move it to Palau in time to depart on Decmeber 17th.

Does anyone have a list already compiled of which ships should be co-located with the 56th if this is done?

Thanks,
Andrew

Note that it doesn't always work to use the real ships (might / might not) I've tried it and failed miserably a few times. Seems like the Japanese were fond of using ships the game calls "AK" as assault transport ... but I guess they didn't read the manual ! [:D]
But both Jon Parshall and Dr. Leo have at least some of the ships listed, not sure they have them all. But you just need enough to carry the unit, but make sure you test !

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
But both Jon Parshall and Dr. Leo have at least some of the ships listed, not sure they have them all. But you just need enough to carry the unit, but make sure you test !

OK. I will do that.

I had a quick look at Niehorster's site but couldn't find the ships, but Kereguelen posted this above:

Sakaguchi Detachment and Miura Detachment were transported on Army Transports Hankow, Havana, Hiteru, Kanko, Kuretake, Liverpool, Teiryu, and Yamatsuki Maru in the Davao operation.

In the CHS ship database, only Havana, Liverpool, and Teiryu Maru are present at Palau at start. Yamatsuki Maru is missing in the database and the rest starts at various ports in Japan (Kanko Maru at Amami).

So that is a start, although is seems that there are some missing ships that could be added?

Andrew

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
But both Jon Parshall and Dr. Leo have at least some of the ships listed, not sure they have them all. But you just need enough to carry the unit, but make sure you test !

OK. I will do that.

I had a quick look at Niehorster's site but couldn't find the ships, but Kereguelen posted this above:

Sakaguchi Detachment and Miura Detachment were transported on Army Transports Hankow, Havana, Hiteru, Kanko, Kuretake, Liverpool, Teiryu, and Yamatsuki Maru in the Davao operation.

In the CHS ship database, only Havana, Liverpool, and Teiryu Maru are present at Palau at start. Yamatsuki Maru is missing in the database and the rest starts at various ports in Japan (Kanko Maru at Amami).

So that is a start, although is seems that there are some missing ships that could be added?

Andrew

It's buried about 8 layers deep

http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/014_japan/41-12-08_ops_02/so_unit-davao_02.html

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
It's buried about 8 layers deep

http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/014_japan/41-12-08_ops_02/so_unit-davao_02.html

Thanks Joe.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Yamatsuki Maru will be in all RHS scenarios from 4.04 - which regretfully may release soon - if we get this carrier air group stuff sorted fully.

Sid - or anyone else? - do you know which class Yamatsuki Maru should be?

There is some info and a pic of her here:

www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/maru/yamazuki.html

Andrew