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And do not forget "Nordland" either....

Regards, Rundstedt

Originally posted by SoleSurvivor:
bah... SS thingy...

SS Totenkopf actually was the weakest part of the Waffen SS

According to Charles Seynor Jr in his book 'Soldiers of Destruction, The SS Death's Head Division, 1933-1945' Totenkopf was "one of the original and throughout the war one of the very best Waffen SS divisions".

I would like to know if you have other information and/or sources.

For all of you who dislikes out-of-topic comments, stop reading here...

I would like to recommend the above mentioned book, and especially the 'Preface to the 1990 edition'. The following quote is, I believe, significant:
"Moreover, the results of subsequent research published since the original edition of this book have also shown that the men whose SS careers included service in the SS Totenkopf division, and who became conspicuous activists in the destruction of the European Jews, played an even greater role in the SS commitment to mass murder and inhumanity than this writer imagined then, or than the parameters of research had revealed by 1975."

Unsurprising - since as I recall the original Totenkopf was recruiteed from Concentration Camp guards - who had the Totenkopf emblem on their uniforms - hence the name.

Other Waffen SS units (eg Wiking) were not guilty of the same sort of atrocities as they simply recruited from foreign sources (Wiking from Finns, Norwegians, Swedes and Danes mostly I believe).

Of course the SS Polizei were the worst of all (Dirlewanger and Kaminski Brigades the most notorious recruited from Convicts and Russian POWs respectively).

The SS-Polizei divisions (I think there were two of them) had nothing to do with Dirlewanger and his men. His unit consisted of convicts and other individuals not eligible for duty in ordinary formations. Almost a kind of penal unit, with very low moral since desertions were extremely high within the unit. :rolleyes:

But then again, the Polizei-divisions may have been involved in war crimes I haven't heard of...

Regards, Rundstedt

Originally posted by g00dd0ggy:
Unsurprising - since as I recall the original Totenkopf was recruiteed from Concentration Camp guards - who had the Totenkopf emblem on their uniforms - hence the name.

Not only recruited; they alternated between front duty (3 weeks) and camp guarding (1 week).

From what I have read, Totenkopf was an ill-lead but well equipped formation. Thus, the equipment had better gone to a regular wehrmacht division and I doubt it had had any negative impact

Rundstedt - I think you are confusing the Waffen SS Divisions that were called Polizei. There were two of these - 4th SS (which is in the game) and 35th Polizei Grenadier Division.

These were called Polizei because they were recruited from Policemen in Germany - pretty sure that is right.

The SS Polizei units (there were no divisions, but lots of independent battalions and the Kaminski/Dirlewanger Brigades) were not Waffen SS as such, but they were still SS units - and very unpleasant too.

Yes, but they had nothing to do with German police forces. Perhaps they acted as "police" forces in occupied areas, but they were surely not a part of either the Feldgendarmerie, SD, or the ORPO.

Regards, Rundstedt

They weren'tpart of the Feldgendarmerie, ORPO I have not heard of...is that the German Civil Police force? Weren't part of SD either, but the SD were part of the SS I belive.

Essentially yes, they were occupation units given a "policing" role.

Officially Dirlewanger did belong to the Waffen-SS, but he operated somewhat independent.

Yes you are correct, the ORPO is short for Ordnungspolizei (the uniformed civilian police force in Germany). Remember that ALL German police organizations, including the SD, the Gestapo, the ORPO and KRIPO, were led by the SS-organisation. You can read more at skalman

Regards, Rundstedt

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: Rundstedt ]

Wasn't there a SS unit that was recruited from concentration camp guards? What was that called?

Originally posted by heiks:
Wasn't there a SS unit that was recruited from concentration camp guards? What was that called?

You could be thinking of Totenkopf, as discussed in the middle of this thread.

/Magnus

Originally posted by MagnusOlsson:



You could be thinking of Totenkopf, as discussed in the middle of this thread.

/Magnus

Ah. Indeed. Missed that post. Should really pay more attention, but since it is monday I think I'll forgive myself this time

My2cents

My favourite is the concept of the KampfGruppe (battleGroup) Ha, KG Loki slices into soviet lines rings true to me...
You need initiative,skill and luck and your CO may award you one for a task to be done..


Nick

Panzer Lehr Divison and PanzerGrenadier Division GrossDuetschland (did I spell that right) were my two favourite units in the German army.

They were both kept up to strength like the SS divisions, Panzer Lehr actually carried almost all of its infantry in armoured half tracks as opposed to 1 bn out of 4 or 6 in the other panzer divisions (it had 2 full strength 3 Bn Panzer Infantry regiments). Both units also had a tiger unit (a company) like the SS PZ divs.

They never fought together but they gave very good accounts of themselves Pz Lehr in the west and GD in the east.

3rd SS Div (death heads) was indeed the division that was drawn from concentration camp guards. 4th SS Div (police) was the one drawn from policemen. Out of the first 5 SS divisions, these two were the least effective, 4th being the worse (it was made up of older men than the other 4 SS divisons), and it never went beyond PanzerGrenadier status, while the other 4 were eventually made Panzer divisions.

Hitler hoped that the Waffen-SS would bring him victory in the east, but there were only in total 7 SS Panzer divisions (and 3 didn't ever fight in the east), so their total impact could not effect the eventual outcome.

The Dirlewanger brigade was later called the 36th "division" but it never went beyond brigade strength and it was different from the two "polizei" divisions (4th PZGD and 35th Inf - which never reached regimental strength).

But enough of the SS, Panzer Lehr and PZGD Grossdeutschland were it.

Originally posted by Mike Santos:
But enough of the SS, Panzer Lehr and PZGD Grossdeutschland were it.

Yes, I'd pick Panzer Lehr over GD though, because it was formed of training and demonstration units and was therefore, and correctly, considered an elite unit.

Besides, it had a better fate then the GD division. Lehr, after being decimated at Caen then later at Bastogne and rebuilt both times, was trapped in the Ruhr pocket and surrendered with the other units there to the Yanks. GD on the other hand was overrun in eastern Germany and totally destroyed by the Soviet Steamroller.

What's wrong with the famous Hermann Göring Panzer Division then? It also fought fiercly and heroic on Sicily, Italy and Poland. I must also agree that Panzer Lehr Division was one of the finest tank formations during the war. Unfortunately it didn't have the full opportunity to display itself as a fighting armored force during the Normandy campaign, due to the Allied air superiority and confined space in the boccage.

Regards, Rundstedt

Originally posted by Rundstedt:
What's wrong with the famous Hermann Göring Panzer Division then? It also fought fiercly and heroic on Sicily, Italy and Poland.

I just can't bring myself to think of it as an elite unit. I imagine myself a member of the unit and try to understand how a foot soldier is going to be motivated by fighting in a unit named after a fat old ex-pilot, one who arguably didn't have the skills necessary to be anything but an ex-pilot; he certainly wasn't good at running an Air Force.

I must also agree that Panzer Lehr Division was one of the finest tank formations during the war. Unfortunately it didn't have the full opportunity to display itself as a fighting armored force during the Normandy campaign, due to the Allied air superiority and confined space in the boccage.

Actually, the Lehr was in the eastern section of the beachhead facing the Brits at Caen. It held up the Brits for weeks, but you're right about the air superiority; it got chewed to pieces in the process by Allied air attacks and heavy naval guns. After nearly 70% losses to these air/naval attacks, and its commander describing their positions as now looking like the surface of the moon, they were withdrawn.

My favourite units are the panzerdivisonen from the Afrika Korps. The 15th and 21st panzers fought against the british with few fuel, ammo, and had worse tanks than the british (at less the germans had the 88 guns). Of course Rommel did the divisions more effectives but always he recognized the skill of their men and their bravety.
I remember one extract from Rommel memories that said his panzer divisions only can move and combat for a few hours for low fuel.The rest of the day they cant move and only can held their positions (attacking the british and with airstrikes!!!).I think that only the brave men of the Afrika Korps can do that(perhaps the GD, Lehr and LSSAH too).

Josan.