Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Shinyo (Scharnhorst) has a sister in Germany (Gneisnau) and it was
planned to turn it into a CVL at one point. If you send it to Japan it
can serve as an AP or convert to a CVL.

Common misconception. Shinyo was converted from the Ocean Liner "Scharnhorst". The Battle Cruiser Scharnhorst served as a raider in the North Atlantic and was sunk on Christmas Day, 1943. Currently it has been deleted, but for an entirely different reason. It was simply too big to have evaded detection and to have refueled along the way. Admiral Scheer's another story, she was very long legged.

To call this scenario a "st-r-e-t-c-h" of the imagination is to put it mildly...., but it does illustrate a point I've been trying to make since this game came out. GET THE BASIC GAME AS HISTORICALLY ACCURATE AS IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE! "Modders" will take care of providing all of the "balanced" or "equal" or "wild and wooley" varients any player can desire. Too bad 2x3 couldn't seem to grasp this simple point, leaving most of the "modding" efforts to date as attempts to drag the game back into the realms of historical reality.

Mike Scholl (now "Retired")

ORIGINAL: bstarr

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Shinyo (Scharnhorst) has a sister in Germany (Gneisnau) and it was
planned to turn it into a CVL at one point. If you send it to Japan it
can serve as an AP or convert to a CVL.

Common misconception. Shinyo was converted from the Ocean Liner "Scharnhorst". The Battle Cruiser Scharnhorst served as a raider in the North Atlantic and was sunk on Christmas Day, 1943. Currently it has been deleted, but for an entirely different reason. It was simply too big to have evaded detection and to have refueled along the way. Admiral Scheer's another story, she was very long legged.

Yeah... funny the all-knowing el cid not knowing the difference between an ocean liner and a battlecruiser...

ORIGINAL: RETIRED

To call this scenario a "st-r-e-t-c-h" of the imagination is to put it mildly...., but it does illustrate a point I've been trying to make since this game came out. GET THE BASIC GAME AS HISTORICALLY ACCURATE AS IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE! "Modders" will take care of providing all of the "balanced" or "equal" or "wild and wooley" varients any player can desire. Too bad 2x3 couldn't seem to grasp this simple point, leaving most of the "modding" efforts to date as attempts to drag the game back into the realms of historical reality.

Mike Scholl (now "Retired")

I agree, this mod is a stretch. In truth it's not much different than any of the other SuperJapan mods - slightly more realistic than some, since these French ships did actually exist, but still a huge stretch.

It is a shame some of the new modded items, such as Don's exhaustive work on the merchant fleets, aren't included in the main scenario.

Damn, I hate that you retired.

LOL. The funniest thing is that Terminus is accusing el cid of not knowing the difference between an ocean liner and a battlecruiser, and in reality he doesn't differentiate them by himself.

Of course el cid was talking about OCEAN LINER Gneisenau.

At the same time, several cruise ships like the Potsdam , Gneisenau , Europa and the Prinz Eugen class cruiser Seydlitz were planed to be converted to aircraft carriers. from: http://www.german-navy.de/smb/scalemode ... story.html

ORIGINAL: bstarr

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Shinyo (Scharnhorst) has a sister in Germany (Gneisnau) and it was
planned to turn it into a CVL at one point. If you send it to Japan it
can serve as an AP or convert to a CVL.

Common misconception. Shinyo was converted from the Ocean Liner "Scharnhorst". The Battle Cruiser Scharnhorst served as a raider in the North Atlantic and was sunk on Christmas Day, 1943. Currently it has been deleted, but for an entirely different reason. It was simply too big to have evaded detection and to have refueled along the way. Admiral Scheer's another story, she was very long legged.

REPLY
Ah Ha! You don't know about Gneisnau. You are not alone - although in the day she was famous.


You have confused two entirely different ships

Just as there is a Scharnhorst and Gneisnau BC

there are a Scharnhorst and Gneisnau ocean liners (AP)!!!


Gneisnau is famous to carrier students - because there was a plan to convert her.

ORIGINAL: RETIRED

To call this scenario a "st-r-e-t-c-h" of the imagination is to put it mildly...., but it does illustrate a point I've been trying to make since this game came out. GET THE BASIC GAME AS HISTORICALLY ACCURATE AS IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE! "Modders" will take care of providing all of the "balanced" or "equal" or "wild and wooley" varients any player can desire. Too bad 2x3 couldn't seem to grasp this simple point, leaving most of the "modding" efforts to date as attempts to drag the game back into the realms of historical reality.

Mike Scholl (now "Retired")

You are quite right. The focus of RHS has been to put the game where it should have been - day one. ONLY RHSEOS tries ahistoric things. PPO is a compromise - historical plans but freedom to use different deployments via political points.

To my surprise, EOS is popular - and as far as I can tell only CVO is otherwise often played. Almost all comments come from EOS, CVO - with a few from BBO - my own favorite.

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: bstarr

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Shinyo (Scharnhorst) has a sister in Germany (Gneisnau) and it was
planned to turn it into a CVL at one point. If you send it to Japan it
can serve as an AP or convert to a CVL.

Common misconception. Shinyo was converted from the Ocean Liner "Scharnhorst". The Battle Cruiser Scharnhorst served as a raider in the North Atlantic and was sunk on Christmas Day, 1943. Currently it has been deleted, but for an entirely different reason. It was simply too big to have evaded detection and to have refueled along the way. Admiral Scheer's another story, she was very long legged.

Yeah... funny the all-knowing el cid not knowing the difference between an ocean liner and a battlecruiser...

You should have kept quiet this time. Always thought you were a person with a mouth who loves to criticize without
constructive intent (what possible constructive intent could this have had?)

You here put foot in mouth - since I do know the difference - and you were the one who did not know there was a rather famous ship of that name which was a liner.

You didn't think: WHY would I say she was planned for conversion to a carrier - if it was not so? I never lie.
IF I said so - it must have been true. And it was. You are very close to being the first person I will never read a
message from: if you don't have a constructive comment - don't make it. Last warning.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: bstarr

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Shinyo (Scharnhorst) has a sister in Germany (Gneisnau) and it was
planned to turn it into a CVL at one point. If you send it to Japan it
can serve as an AP or convert to a CVL.

Common misconception. Shinyo was converted from the Ocean Liner "Scharnhorst". The Battle Cruiser Scharnhorst served as a raider in the North Atlantic and was sunk on Christmas Day, 1943. Currently it has been deleted, but for an entirely different reason. It was simply too big to have evaded detection and to have refueled along the way. Admiral Scheer's another story, she was very long legged.

REPLY
Ah Ha! You don't know about Gneisnau. You are not alone - although in the day she was famous.


You have confused two entirely different ships

Just as there is a Scharnhorst and Gneisnau BC

there are a Scharnhorst and Gneisnau ocean liners (AP)!!!


Gneisenau is famous to carrier students - because there was a plan to convert her.

Wait a minute. What makes you say I didn't know about Gneisau? Am I supposed to mention every ship of the same class everytime I post about a ship? That sound like something you'd do. [;)] Of course I knew about Gneisenau.

Anyway, back to the Scharnhorst:
From the operational history of the Scharnhorst BATTLE CRUISER:

Sep - Dec 1943: Scharnhorst is first stationed in the Kaa Fjord, then in the Lang Fjord.
25.12.1943: Under the command of Conter-Admiral Bey, the Scharnhorst and destroyers Z29 , Z30 , Z33 , Z34 and
Z38 tries to find and attack the convoy JW-55B on its way to Murmansk. The Scharnhorst is detected by British Cruisers after she left her escorts. After several attempts, the British battleship Duke of York locates the Scharnhorst .
26.12.1943: After several hours, the Scharnhorst is sunk at 7:45 pm. Only 36 crew members survive.

here's the entire history of the ship.

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ ... rions.html

Funny, they never mention a conversion to aircraft carrier. Reckon that has something to do with the fact you are thinking of the wrong ship.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: bstarr




Common misconception. Shinyo was converted from the Ocean Liner "Scharnhorst". The Battle Cruiser Scharnhorst served as a raider in the North Atlantic and was sunk on Christmas Day, 1943. Currently it has been deleted, but for an entirely different reason. It was simply too big to have evaded detection and to have refueled along the way. Admiral Scheer's another story, she was very long legged.

Yeah... funny the all-knowing el cid not knowing the difference between an ocean liner and a battlecruiser...

You should have kept quiet this time. Always thought you were a person with a mouth who loves to criticize without
constructive intent (what possible constructive intent could this have had?)

You here put foot in mouth - since I do know the difference - and you were the one who did not know there was a rather famous ship of that name which was a liner.

You didn't think: WHY would I say she was planned for conversion to a carrier - if it was not so? I never lie.
IF I said so - it must have been true. And it was. You are very close to being the first person I will never read a
message from: if you don't have a constructive comment - don't make it. Last warning.

cid, I love you and all but if I were you I would seriously consider checking a few sources before making such a bold statement.[;)]

Bstarr - as our Polish member tried to tell you - I know what I am talking about. The battlecruiser Gneisnau is not the ship I was talking about - clearly because I said my ship was "sister to the Scharnhorst" that was converted to a CVE by Japan. You cannot find a reference to converting the battlecruiser to a carrier - but there are many about the AP - because it was planned to convert the sister- in Germany. It is you who got mixed up by not knowing this - I am not sure how - and not I. There is no point in being insulting - and I don't tolerate it. When wrong I admit it. You seem unable to even do that. Go look her up - the Gneisnau AP - and you will find your conversion information. A link is posted above.

Well, you were being a bit rude to Terminus. 
 
Actually, I see what you mean.  I thought (as Terminus did, I believe) that you were saying that the BC Scharnhorst  shouldn't be in the mod since it was converted to a carrier.  To add to the confusion, the both the BC Scharnhost and the Ocean Liner Scharnhorst have sisterships named Gneisenau (and I did know about all four).  I guess you can say that you misread what I wrote in the other thread, and I misread you in this one.
 
Difference is, I admit it.  [;)]
 
No, seriously, it's been fun, but we're starting to get snippy.
bs
 
ps.  I believe I will add the extra carrier.

Go on Bstarr, I suppose you can count on the board's French freaks even if we've got the bad role up there [;)]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Go on Bstarr, I suppose you can count on the board's French freaks even if we've got the bad role up there [;)]

And you can probably count on the Jap fans to give you hell saying the japs are the bad roll. [;)]

No, seriously, I'm normally more Napoleonic in my reading, so I think that's where I get my interest in French history. However, I had never really studied the French role in WWII until now. It's really been an interesting experience.

Possibly it was not clear - but saying "there is this German ship that is sister of a Japanese carrier conversion - actually planned for conversion herself in Germany" was meant to be interpreted as a suggestion - to have yet another carrier!!! I don't see how it could be read any other way - and if it could have been said better - well I missed it. I also assumed most people here knew about all four famous ships - and didn't want to be thought to be "pontificating" by a long lecture on them. Win some - lose some. I tried - and in the end you are adding the ship - which was my intent.

ORIGINAL: bstarr

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Go on Bstarr, I suppose you can count on the board's French freaks even if we've got the bad role up there [;)]

And you can probably count on the Jap fans to give you hell saying the japs are the bad roll. [;)]

No, seriously, I'm normally more Napoleonic in my reading, so I think that's where I get my interest in French history. However, I had never really studied the French role in WWII until now. It's really been an interesting experience.

In that case, you should definately read Eugenia Kiesling's Arming Against Hitler. Gives you a really good idea why the French fell apart in 1940. If ever a nation purposely designed a military system to produce a disaster, it was France on the 20's and 30's. You'll find it facinating....

ORIGINAL: RETIRED

ORIGINAL: bstarr

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Go on Bstarr, I suppose you can count on the board's French freaks even if we've got the bad role up there [;)]

And you can probably count on the Jap fans to give you hell saying the japs are the bad roll. [;)]

No, seriously, I'm normally more Napoleonic in my reading, so I think that's where I get my interest in French history. However, I had never really studied the French role in WWII until now. It's really been an interesting experience.

In that case, you should definately read Eugenia Kiesling's Arming Against Hitler. Gives you a really good idea why the French fell apart in 1940. If ever a nation purposely designed a military system to produce a disaster, it was France on the 20's and 30's. You'll find it facinating....

thanks, I'll be sure and order it.

do you need planesides?

ORIGINAL: bstarr

thanks, I'll be sure and order it.

You'll especially enjoy the 8 years during which of the 27 Divisions in the French Army, 45% of the men had been in uniform for 7-12 months, and 45% more from 0-6 months And the 100,000 "Regulars" spent all their time giving the same 6 months of "basic training" over and over and over.... The whole Army NEVER got to train in greater than "company" strength. Small wonder in 1940 the Battalions, Regiments, and Divisions came unglued.

ORIGINAL: Beren

do you need planesides?

I think Dixie has just about got all of them covered. Thanks for the offer, though.