Matrix Games Forums

Ammo was limited on purpose. In the movie they either ran out or were killed.

General Marshall was the Chief of Staff of the United States Armed Services. It was he who ordered the rescue of Private Ryan.

So...you have not seen the movie?...WB

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Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Originally posted by Wild Bill:


So...you have not seen the movie?...WB

I have, about a year ago. It was 'just' a good war movie for me, so can I be forgiven that I didn't remember the name of some General? I do have a lousy memory for names, really. hmm..Marshall..wasn't the Marshall-aid named after him?

Yep, I remember the ammo part very well..I kinda liked how they used those mortar rounds as handgrenades. I just thought to try it with limited ammo off and see how much of a difference it makes.

Wild Bill: I'm talking from a general perspective when I refer to the 2nd turrent gun, not scenario specific. Beyond that scenario, I have always seen tanks, and indeed LMG's fire when the 1st gun was out of shots, as well as AT guns 2nd main gun, so to speak. You know what I bet the problem is with the bazooka? I bet it's the 3rd or 4th weapon, unless I'm mistaken, those weapons are always treated as the BMG on the tank, which has to pass some roll to fire beyond range two. If the bazooka is firng from the 1st or 2nd weapon position, then certainly what I describe doesn't apply. Perhaps there's some anomaly with infantry firing a strictly AT gun as the primary weapon? Someone also ought to run a test campaign or what-not, to see if bazooka teams are cursed throughout the game, or if it's just that scenario. This of course makes me wonder about the panzerfaust as well (for those so equipped who may have it as the 1st or 2nd weapon position [such as the AT bazooka sections]).

Marshall was that man, Voriax. And yes, memory lapses do occur. And they occur more as you get older. What were we talking about?


Charles, you may be on to something. I'm going to run a few tests. I always recommend this to all of you when you find what you think might be a problem. Make your own tiny test and check it. Right or wrong, you know then without question the answer...WB

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Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

When dealing with units in a large stack, I use the "T" buttn amd "p and n" to select a particular unit. Easier than fiddling with the mouse most times

Working to sort out the inf AT problem...It may have to do with position of teh weapon, all the ones with an AT wep in slot 1 seem to work OK for me...haven't tried the specific scenario though.

Let's see what I can dig from my failing memory now....The problem isn't just bazookas. Yep, in the bazooka case it is a 4th weapon. But when those privates refused to use grenades or Colts they were either 2nd or 3rd weapons. I agree that this is probably a scenario problem as usually weapons work fine, except occasionally there are similar problems with satchel charges and other 1 hex range AT weapons (like they are used in assault but not in normal fire) I hope you can solve the problem with your testing, Bill. Just try to remember to tell the coders

Voriax

Help for Bill


I ran some tests myself. I took an infantry-AT unit and created 4 replicants from it. I gave them one bazooka in one slot and rifles for all the other slots.

I did test shootings at armoured cars and all fired nicely, even those teams that had bazookas as 3rd or 4th weapon.

Then I decided to try something different and changed the unit class to 'Airborne Infantry'

Units with 1st and 2nd bazookas fired okay, and NO fire from 3rd or 4th! Also the _rifle_ in the 3rd or 4th slot didn't fire.

When I changed the unit type to 'Infantry', same thing happened. No fire from 3rd or 4th slot.

So this thing seems to be related with unit type. Also this may have something connected with scenario editor, as in random battles weapons tend to work better.

Voriax

In the case of tanks and AT guns, they will fire their 2nd weapon without firing the 1st, as I described, but then I'm not upgrading trucks into tanks either, but as has been noted, tanks/AT guns can have problems firing when the "T" technique for acquiring targets is used.

Paul: You mentioned using "N" and "P" when first using the "T" for targeting. The only problem with that, is that the 2nd gun, when that technique is used still doesn't fire. To really know if you can bypass the problem, and the idea I've had does that, is to start a turn by nulling the 1st gun, then try to hit "T" to choose the target, then hit "F", as usual, and it won't fire. You either have to let the 1st weapon fire at each new target, first, and then null it to fire the 2nd, or you have to null the 1st weapon for every new target and NOT hit "T", but move the cursor instead, then hit LMB.

You know, I just thought about something. Maybe, when we see the 2nd gun not firing when the 1st is nulled out, is because during op the 1st gun was left with a target. Perhaps nulling the 1st weapon, loses the target, thereby in some strange way not allowing the 2nd to fire on NEW targets. In other words, perhaps "targeting" or using the "T" command, requires the 1st gun operable for one fire order. When using the cursor/LMB, this allows the 2nd weapon to fire without regard to prior commitments by the 1st. Interesting, though, I wonder if the unit was left that way, during op fire (with 1st weapon nulled), if it would fire the 2nd weapon, and if so, would it then be able to target (using "T"/"F") on it's own, during the player turn, when trying to acquire new targets? Just a study, as I said the cursor/LMB always works for the 2nd gun, but technically I'm talking only from the experience of one who doesn't alter types, which may confuse the situation even more, as described earlier.

BTW, I have had typical infantry units, where I nulled out the rifle, to have the 2nd weapon fire, using the cursor/LMB approach, though there's hardly ever a call for it. I guess if you're into really heavy fighting with your infantry, thereby using much more supply, you might conserve the 2nd weapon for the tougher situations, or even more particularly, save both the 1st and 2nd weapon in the assualts, as I don't know if it does any good in aiding the assault of a tank, particularly a tank that's already been fired upon. To look at the displays, it seems to me that my tanks don't add suppression until the whole of the enemy unit's fire for the pulse has expired.

OK, probably related to reason the weapon selector won't work right ... Thanks Charles!

Thanks for the search and test, guys. These findings are a help to us...WB


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Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Originally posted by Voriax:

Help for Bill


I ran some tests myself. I took an infantry-AT unit and created 4 replicants from it. I gave them one bazooka in one slot and rifles for all the other slots.

I did test shootings at armoured cars and all fired nicely, even those teams that had bazookas as 3rd or 4th weapon.

Then I decided to try something different and changed the unit class to 'Airborne Infantry'

Units with 1st and 2nd bazookas fired okay, and NO fire from 3rd or 4th! Also the _rifle_ in the 3rd or 4th slot didn't fire.

When I changed the unit type to 'Infantry', same thing happened. No fire from 3rd or 4th slot.

So this thing seems to be related with unit type. Also this may have something connected with scenario editor, as in random battles weapons tend to work better.

Voriax

I might be able to shed a bit more light on this one ... A while back I went to reduce SP2 down to single vehicles/single man scale, 25 metres to the hex, for a laugh. Crew weapons such as MGs, SAMs, infantry-AT etc all work okay for 1 man/multiple weapons, but any infantry squad type (heavy, light, elite, etc), as far as I was able to determine, the code works on the number of men in the squad left as to how many weapons fire - so with only 2 men left, you'd get weapons 1 & 2 firing but not 3 & 4 (though I think they still close assault with those - not sure), but with only one man left, you'd only get weapon 1 firing so you don't end up with Mr Uber-Marine firing a rifle, squad machine gun, grenade launcher -and- AT-weapon all at once .

StuNZ, I think you have hit upon it, Mate! You are correct, the number of men in the unit determine how many weapons can be fired. Now whether this resolve the matter totally is another question, but this does have an effect. When you are down to one man in a squad, he is going to fire the first weapon first, etc. There is no way he can fire all four weapons.

If a weapon is a type of crewed weapon, more than likely it won't be fired.

Voriax did a good test, but I am going to try to take a bit further and see what happens.

I'll let you know.

I should have thought of that, but "kunelitis" (we Raiders call aging forgetfulness just that!) must have gotten me again.

Thanks, guys. All of this has been of help.

WB


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Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Well I also have seen that with not enough man in a squad the stop firing weapons and I think its correct . Be the way I asked myself this week how two off these onemam units carry a garand and a bar with all this ammunition and are not slowed down ? But I my firing test at 8 Pzkpfw IV H I was not able to get a 12 men full airborne squad to fire it bazooka at any range it was only used at assaults

I'm going to do some of my own testing too, right now. I'll get back...WB
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Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Hmmmmmm. I think I've stumbled into a way of bypassing the game rules. The mention of infantry firng only to the score of the men in the squad makes a lot of sense, unfortunately it doesn't apply to tanks which haven't lost any men. The solution, possibly, or at least for tanks? I think, when I discovered the cursor/LMB way of firing the 2nd weapon independent of the 1st, that I accidently found a way to cheat. I think the 2nd weapon is considered one that has to be fired by a man opening the hatch, and it seems that the usual targeting routine of "T"/"F" correctly keeps the 2nd gun from firing. If this theory is correct then nulling the 1st gun, to fire the second, would only work if the tank had not previously been fired upon (Hmmm, there could be some purpose to trying to put every tank under some sort of fire, even if there's no hope of much suppression building). Unfortunately, if the tank being fired upon keeps the 2nd gun from firing, is the idea behind this, then it doesn't work completely, because as I said, before I found the way around it, the main gun need only be fired once at NEW targets, then nulled, and then the 2nd can fire. Regardless of how many times the 1st fires, if the man can't open the hatch, he can't open it.

I'm at work right now, and it would sure be nice if someone could set up a test and let us know. One test would be simply to put an infantry unit 15 hexes away, on turn one, and have the tank see if the tank will fire both guns (since in this case it wouldn't have been fired upon and the infantry is too far to fire on it anyway (perhaps a scout would need to spot the infantry first). If this works, it would seem to me that the 2nd gun not firing, when we've seen it, was meant to show the crew had been fired upon and didn't wish to expose themselves. I would also like to know, if a tank has taken fire from only one unit, if firing the 1st weapon at that unit, is supposed to mimic a major enough fire being rained down on the enemy, that then the 1st shot fired gives the crew confidence enough to open the hatch and fire the 2nd gun only. If that were the case, then if the tank had been fired on by more than one unit, each unit would need an answer during the player turn, from the main gun, in order to open the hatch and fire the 2nd.

If what I've been doing to get around the 2nd gun from firing is cheating, then maybe the easy way to get around this when relating to being buttoned, would be to have one man exposed to fire somewhat as infantry would, when the 2nd weapon has just been fired prior. If what I've been doing is cheating, and I would consdier cheating as doing something the computer cannot do, then basically being far less able to use that 2nd gun in forefights could change my strategy for fighting fair, in a MAJOR way. I get low enough on anti-personnel ammunition as it is from main guns. This could put a whole new dimension on the need to substitute some of the more glamorous tanks for tanks with just mg's. Wow.