MWiF Map Review - America

[JagdFlanker]

there is no tundra in newfoundland - the geography of the tundra hexes area is rugged and rocky flatlands

http://www.heritage.nf.ca/environment/e ... _nfld.html

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here are the Antilles. Hummm.... can nearly feel the taste of rum cocktails.
This area strongly reminds me of the famous PC game, Pirate (Sid Meyer's). What a great experience !!!! [:D]

Well it reminds me of the Australian cricket team beating the West Indies at home for the first time in 22 years in 1995. Steve Waugh's 200 runs, his twin brother Mark's 123, and their partnership of 231 ground the Windies into dirt in the deciding game. The crowd were choking on their rum cocktails. [:D]

My friends and I, however, watching in the wee small hours, enjoyed quite a few refreshing ales. [:'(]

Cheers, Neilster

[coregames]

Patrice, I showed my local Albuquerque WiF group your work on the MWiF map, and other than removing the second mountain hex east of Albuquerque, they all suggested making the hexside due east an alpine hexside, to account for the cliff face of the Sandias (it's like a three thousand foot drop).

Thanks for your hard work, great job on Panama!

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: coregames

Patrice, I showed my local Albuquerque WiF group your work on the MWiF map, and other than removing the second mountain hex east of Albuquerque, they all suggested making the hexside due east an alpine hexside, to account for the cliff face of the Sandias (it's like a three thousand foot drop).

I cannot put an Alpine hexside between an hex that is clear and an hex that is mountain. Normaly it is put between 2 mountain hexes.

Thanks for your hard work, great job on Panama!

Thanks !

[MPHopcroft1]

I am enjoying seeing these map sections, but they also bring up two interesting questions that are related to game play as much as anything else.

1. Historically, those Latin American nations that actually bothered to enter the war in a limited capacity joined the Allies, probably so they could continue to trade with the United States. Would it be possible in game for a Latin American country (such as an earlier-than-historical Peronist Argentina) to side with the Axis instead?

2. To continue the example, Would either the Axis or Argentina gain anything from them doing so, and would an Axis Argentina pose a strategic problem for the US and Britain?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

I am enjoying seeing these map sections, but they also bring up two interesting questions that are related to game play as much as anything else.

1. Historically, those Latin American nations that actually bothered to enter the war in a limited capacity joined the Allies, probably so they could continue to trade with the United States. Would it be possible in game for a Latin American country (such as an earlier-than-historical Peronist Argentina) to side with the Axis instead?

2. To continue the example, Would either the Axis or Argentina gain anything from them doing so, and would an Axis Argentina pose a strategic problem for the US and Britain?

Hopefully, someone else who is confident in their knowledge on this topic will answer you. In the meantime, I am about to post 7 more pages of the 2nd tutorial which will give you some information related to your question.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

I am enjoying seeing these map sections, but they also bring up two interesting questions that are related to game play as much as anything else.

1. Historically, those Latin American nations that actually bothered to enter the war in a limited capacity joined the Allies, probably so they could continue to trade with the United States. Would it be possible in game for a Latin American country (such as an earlier-than-historical Peronist Argentina) to side with the Axis instead?

2. To continue the example, Would either the Axis or Argentina gain anything from them doing so, and would an Axis Argentina pose a strategic problem for the US and Britain?

Hopefully, someone else who is confident in their knowledge on this topic will answer you. In the meantime, I am about to post 7 more pages of the 2nd tutorial which will give you some information related to your question.

Here is what is covered by RAW about South American countries in WiF FE :
RAW Quote :
**********************************
13.8 Victory check
(...)
Subtract 1 from an Allied major power’s total for each minor country on the American map that it declared war on. Subtract 1 from the USA’s total if the USA has declared that both Mexico and Brazil are aligned with it (see 19.8).
**********************************
Please note that in MWiF there is no such thing as the "America Map", but nevertheless all countries in MWiF are bound to a particular continent, whether American, Asia or Europe, for the enforcing of such rules that were linked to specifics maps in WiF FE.

RAW Quote :
**********************************
19.7 Axis minor countries
(...)
Argentina
Germany can declare that Argentina is aligning with it during any Axis declaration of war step if Argentina is neutral and an Allied major power has declared war on any minor country on the America map.

19.8 Allied minor countries
(...)
Brazil
The USA can declare that Brazil is aligning with it during any Allied declaration of war step if Brazil is neutral and the USA is at war with Germany, Italy and Japan.

Central America
The USA can declare that Central America is aligning with it during any Allied declaration of war step if Central America is neutral and the USA is at war with Germany, Italy or Japan.

Mexico
The USA can declare that Mexico is aligning with it during any Allied declaration of war step if Mexico is neutral and the USA is at war with Germany, Italy and Japan.
**********************************
Please note here, that "Central America" does not exist per see in MWiF. It is replaced by the real countries that were hiden behind this generic names, that is Panama, Costa Rica, and the others whose name escapes me for the moment.

[Froonp]

19.8 Allied minor countries
(...)
Brazil
The USA can declare that Brazil is aligning with it during any Allied declaration of war step if Brazil is neutral and the USA is at war with Germany, Italy and Japan.

Central America
The USA can declare that Central America is aligning with it during any Allied declaration of war step if Central America is neutral and the USA is at war with Germany, Italy or Japan.

Mexico
The USA can declare that Mexico is aligning with it during any Allied declaration of war step if Mexico is neutral and the USA is at war with Germany, Italy and Japan.
**********************************
Please note here, that "Central America" does not exist per see in MWiF. It is replaced by the real countries that were hiden behind this generic names, that is Panama, Costa Rica, and the others whose name escapes me for the moment.

Generaly those 3 alignements are done in typical WiF FE games.
Mexico for the precious oil and factory(ies), Brazil for the factory(ies), Central America for the precious Convoy Points.

[Froonp]

**********************************
13.8 Victory check
(...)
Subtract 1 from an Allied major power’s total for each minor country on the American map that it declared war on. Subtract 1 from the USA’s total if the USA has declared that both Mexico and Brazil are aligned with it (see 19.8).
**********************************
Please note that in MWiF there is no such thing as the "America Map", but nevertheless all countries in MWiF are bound to a particular continent, whether American, Asia or Europe, for the enforcing of such rules that were linked to specifics maps in WiF FE.

RAW Quote :
**********************************
19.7 Axis minor countries
(...)
Argentina
Germany can declare that Argentina is aligning with it during any Axis declaration of war step if Argentina is neutral and an Allied major power has declared war on any minor country on the America map.

From this you may see that it is a very bad idea for any Allied Major Power to declare war on any American Country, because of the Victory City penalty, and because of the Argentina Alignement, which will cause havoc because Argentina has a relatively large army & navy who can make Brazil life difficult and attack far Allied convoy lines. Argentina on the other hand would not be a good supply source for Axis ships, because it would necessitate ARgentina's Capital to have a supply path to the Axis home Country of the ships.

[MPHopcroft1]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

**********************************
13.8 Victory check
(...)
Subtract 1 from an Allied major power’s total for each minor country on the American map that it declared war on. Subtract 1 from the USA’s total if the USA has declared that both Mexico and Brazil are aligned with it (see 19.8).
**********************************
Please note that in MWiF there is no such thing as the "America Map", but nevertheless all countries in MWiF are bound to a particular continent, whether American, Asia or Europe, for the enforcing of such rules that were linked to specifics maps in WiF FE.

RAW Quote :
**********************************
19.7 Axis minor countries
(...)
Argentina
Germany can declare that Argentina is aligning with it during any Axis declaration of war step if Argentina is neutral and an Allied major power has declared war on any minor country on the America map.

From this you may see that it is a very bad idea for any Allied Major Power to declare war on any American Country, because of the Victory City penalty, and because of the Argentina Alignement, which will cause havoc because Argentina has a relatively large army & navy who can make Brazil life difficult and attack far Allied convoy lines. Argentina on the other hand would not be a good supply source for Axis ships, because it would necessitate ARgentina's Capital to have a supply path to the Axis home Country of the ships.

So what you seem to be saying, if I understand you correctly, is that Argentina will enter the war if and only if one of the Allied player-controlled countries makes a pointless and painfully obvious blunder. Because I cannot imagine a game circumstance in which it would be necessary for an Allied country to declare war on a country in the Americas. Sure, the Americans could invade Cuba, but why?

Historically, Hitler did not even attempt to assert his authorities over the Western hemisphere possessions of France and the Netherlands after he conquered them. For him to do so would have force the USA into the war far sooner than he would have wished, and required an ability to extend his power across the Atlantic he did not possess.

[Mziln]

Argentina on the other hand would not be a good supply source for Axis ships, because it would necessitate ARgentina's Capital to have a supply path to the Axis home Country of the ships.

Axis = German and Italian units co-operate if neither is neutral. Japan doesn't co-operate.

2.4.2 Tracing supply

A primary supply source for a unit is:

• any friendly city in the unit’s unconquered home country; or
• for a Commonwealth unit, any friendly city in another unconquered Commonwealth home country; or
• any friendly city in an unconquered home country of a major power the unit co-operates with (see 18.1 Who can co-operate).

[JagdFlanker]

germany didn't have to worry about south america so much because spain aquired supplies from south america and shipped them to germany via spain:

In a secret protocol to a 1939 German-Spanish agreement, Spain promised to serve as a conduit of supplies from South America. In May 1940, Spain signed a three-year agreement with Italy promising it vital supplies. Spanish flagged ships were used to smuggle goods from South America to the Nazis.

...In May 1943, due to the smuggling of materials into Spain for the Nazis, the US started a program to buy up the sources of these materials in South America.

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/goldp6.html

starting just above page 2

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Argentina on the other hand would not be a good supply source for Axis ships, because it would necessitate ARgentina's Capital to have a supply path to the Axis home Country of the ships.

Axis = German and Italian units co-operate if neither is neutral. Japan doesn't co-operate.

2.4.2 Tracing supply
A primary supply source for a unit is:
• any friendly city in the unit’s unconquered home country; or
• for a Commonwealth unit, any friendly city in another unconquered Commonwealth home country; or
• any friendly city in an unconquered home country of a major power the unit co-operates with (see 18.1 Who can co-operate).

So, Buenos Aires, the Capital of Argentina (Minor Country), is a Primary supply source For Argentinian units.
It is a secondaty supply source for German Units.
A Secondary supply source need to trace a supply path to a Primary supply source to be available as a supply source.
This is what I said.

[Froonp]

So what you seem to be saying, if I understand you correctly, is that Argentina will enter the war if and only if one of the Allied player-controlled countries makes a pointless and painfully obvious blunder.

Under pure WiF FE RAW, that's it.
There are systems under which this is not the same, PoliF, DoD III, AiF, but with WiF FE as it is made into MWiF, this is it.

Because I cannot imagine a game circumstance in which it would be necessary for an Allied country to declare war on a country in the Americas. Sure, the Americans could invade Cuba, but why?

I cannot too.

[Froonp]

Because I cannot imagine a game circumstance in which it would be necessary for an Allied country to declare war on a country in the Americas. Sure, the Americans could invade Cuba, but why?

I cannot too.

Well, I'd add that at least, this threat of Argentinian siding with the Axis, has the advantage of preventing the Allies from DoWing countries in the Americas for easy RP & OIL gaining.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader
germany didn't have to worry about south america so much because spain aquired supplies from south america and shipped them to germany via spain:

In a secret protocol to a 1939 German-Spanish agreement, Spain promised to serve as a conduit of supplies from South America. In May 1940, Spain signed a three-year agreement with Italy promising it vital supplies. Spanish flagged ships were used to smuggle goods from South America to the Nazis.

...In May 1943, due to the smuggling of materials into Spain for the Nazis, the US started a program to buy up the sources of these materials in South America.

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/goldp6.html
starting just above page 2

Spain in WiF FE has a trade agreement with Germany, and ships 1 RP from when France falls.
This trade agreement may be the representation of what you describe here.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

Should Lake Maricaibo in Venz. be invadeable? If WiFFE had been made to this scale, I'm sure it would merit a special straits rule, like Gibraltar, London, Istanbul, or the Baltic.

Suggest either a new rule, or make it a geographically incorrect lake.

I would not want to make it a geographically incorrect lake, because it wold look to much incorrect.

First, I would like to point out that this is the same as in WiF FE, even at the Pacific scale, the hexes inside Maracaibo Lake, are invadable (there is an all-sea hexside).

Then I would like to point out that it seems to me that this is not very realistic to imagine an invasion fleet crawling the 40 km long / 7-18 km wide strait of Maracaibo. Well, it is not realistic if we imagine a Gibraltar like fortification, with mines, nets and guns, but it may not have been the case of this strait, during WWII. I do not know. also, as a matter of fact, I can say that this strait and "lake" seems perfectly navigable, and that I actually did so, while Playing Sid Meyer's Pirate, and going plundering the rich cities that are on the shores down there.


This said, I think it can be dealt in 3 ways in MWiF :

A- Let is as is.
Advantage : We are exactly like WiF FE (Invadable), AND nothing more is to be done.
Drawback : This is not very true to reality (to be verified).

B- Create a new rule restricting access to the shores of the hexes inside the lake, to the side who does not control the strait. I would love such a rule to exist, as it would be the more realistic. This rule could also applied to the Channel (England / France part of the North Sea) and restrict access to the shores that are west of Calais / Dover up to Brest to the side that do not control London (we play with such a house rule). It could also be applied to the Adriatic in a similar way.
Advantages : It is the most realistic.
Drawback : Steve is already saying NO [:D].

C- Have the hexes on the Maracaibo Lake shores be Not Adjacent to the Caribbean Sea. the Trick in MWiF is that, even if a land hex is physically adjacent to a sea hex, it is only adjacent to this sea area in game terms if you define this "adjacent" status in another CSV file. You say in this file "The hex at XX,YY coordinates is adjacent to Sea Area ##, and ## and ##". So, the "adjacent" status of the hexes on the shore of Maracaibo Lake could be removed from the "Adjacency" CSV file, and its done.
Advantage : This stay realistic in terms of Geography, and in terms on invadability of those hexes.
Drawback : I suspect that deleting the "Adjacent" status of land hexes that are physically adjacent to sea hexes, makes a dark blue line appear between the sea and land hex. This is ugly. But I suppose that the programming skills of Steve could overcome that ?

Opinions ?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

A.

B & C are interesting but not for MWIF product 1.

[sajbalk]

Well, I guess (a) will have to be the choice for now. The larger scale does create some changes where a rule may have been inserted in the paper game. But that is not the task here.
 
 

[Froonp]

Here is the Yucatan and the rest of Central America.