Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: ckammp

The solution is easy, and obvious:

Play vs. AI.

Playing vs. AI avoids the gamey "unbeatable artillery death star".

Thus, playing vs. AI is the best, most satisfying method of enjoying WitP:AE. [:)]

Hmmmm. You sure we're playing the same game. I have Japanese attacking Alor Star with two regiments of infantry, five regiments and four battalions of artillery, and three engineers. That many tubes seems to become a distinct problem in trying to maintain any viable force available to me, which is not much. So, I am reduced to the Monty Python defense... Runaway, Runaway... Normal for this stage of the game, of course.

Easy way to do china is no do china. neither side moves in or out or moves units there [except china 11 army to burma?]. no more problem. japan player can not release china units for move outside either. changing china command cheaper for japan than manchuria command so no china command move. also no move air out [include 2 avg squadrons]. no more china problem.

As a matter of fact doctrines could change, therefore it is imho unappropriate to claim doctrinal limits for Japan or whom lese.
It would be much easier, if the artillery would
a) need much more supplies when bombarding
b) need much more support to be able to bombard

This should be doable easily.

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: castor troy
The problem is that the Japanese in the game know that there won´t happen much, better say nothing, if they don´t activate the Russians themselve.

Yeah, I wonder how much artillery they'd buy out if every time a unit was bought there was a 1 in 6 random roll for immediate Russian activation.

Jim

You have to add in a sliding scale based upon which war year one is in. I think the Jap. could have taken every one of their soldiers out of Manchuria in early '42 and replaced them with rice farmers and ugly geisha girls ( the Russians may have come after good looking geishas ) and the Soviets would not have bothered. On the other hand they came through that area like a hot knife through butter 3 and 1/2 years later. So I think ( and I am never wrong of course ) that the Jap. should have much more freedom of action in the first part of '42 than the first part of '45.

ORIGINAL: Marty A

Easy way to do china is no do china. neither side moves in or out or moves units there [except china 11 army to burma?]. no more problem. japan player can not release china units for move outside either. changing china command cheaper for japan than manchuria command so no china command move. also no move air out [include 2 avg squadrons]. no more china problem.

Isn't there an entire scenario already built around that concept ?

ORIGINAL: stuman
You have to add in a sliding scale based upon which war year one is in. I think the Jap. could have taken every one of their soldiers out of Manchuria in early '42 and replaced them with rice farmers and ugly geisha girls ( the Russians may have come after good looking geishas ) and the Soviets would not have bothered. On the other hand they came through that area like a hot knife through butter 3 and 1/2 years later. So I think ( and I am never wrong of course ) that the Jap. should have much more freedom of action in the first part of '42 than the first part of '45.

Japan could no more have done that in 42 than Germany or Russia could or would have left their east front borders undefended during 40/41. Stalin was absolutely convinced that Germany would not attack, yet he massed 2/3rds of his land army right up on the border with Germany even though his actions leading up to 22 June prove he was 100% positive Germany was not going to attack him.

You and I enjoy a hindsight none of the leaders in the era of WWII could even fathom coming close to. Capable intelligence agencies were something that would develop and evolve during the war and wouldn’t really be dependable until years into the cold war that followed the end of WWII.

All countries were pretty much blind to what was going on inside other countries borders at that time. Japan was terrified the Russians would attack every day of the war. The size and makeup of their Manchukuo garrison armies proves that. Especially the size of the airforce they left there.

Airforces were easy to move in very short periods of time when compared to the complexities of moving the rest of a military force. Yet Japan kept huge numbers of planes in Manchukuo for the entire war, planes they desperately needed elsewhere. No way would they have ever contemplated moving in rice farmers.

Only we gamers with our 20/20 hindsight would ever consider such a move. And as I said above. Would anyone make the move if every unit they freed up had a 1 in 6 chance of activation? That’s the kind of fear Japan actually operated under. Whether or not history justifies their fear doesn’t matter. It was real and palpable to them and dictated their actions during the war.

Jim

I guess this is where we will have to disagree to some extent then. Of course we are playing with the advantage of hindsight. Goes without saying. My point really is only that inspite of Japans' concerns , which they certainly did have, I am equally convinced that the Soviets would in fact not have attacked in 1942 merely because Japan pulled some troops out of Manchuria. So , imo , if I think the Soviets would not, under any circumstances have UNILATERALLY started a war with Japan in 1942, then I submit that fact has to also be considered when coming up with " 1 to 6 " odds.

The discussion has been centered around supply/logistics type solutions. And that seems logical. But the argument that Russia would have swooped down upon Manchuria once some magic number of troops moved out in 1942, or even 1943 imo, just does not seem reasonable at all. 1944 could be a different story, but even then I am not sure they would have wanted to lose the Vlad. based Lend Lease supply runs.

Interesting information showing how important the Vlad. port was to the Soviets in receiving Lend Lease aid. I just do not think they would have jepordized this in '42, '43 or even in '44 . But anyway food for thought :

About half of the cargoes for the Soviet Union were delivered by the Pacific route. War-time Minister of the Soviet Navy, Admiral Nikolai Kuznetsov, wrote in his memoirs: “Transport vessels loaded at the ports on the west coast of the United States arrived in Vladivostok, Nikolayevsk-on-Amur and Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, in the Soviet Far East. As a rule, the time at sea ranged from 18 to 20 days — plus the time it took to deliver the cargoes by rail, first, in the United States and then on Soviet territory. Although the Soviet Union strictly observed neutrality, the Japanese interfered with the passage of ships in the Pacific and sometimes sank our vessels…”

http://ruvr.ru/main.php?lng=eng&q=20530 ... 19.12.2007

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Fortifications do affect artillery.

OK - that's what counts.

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Fortifications do affect artillery.

If you say so Joe, I have to believe you. But the results in the game sure don't seem to bear you out. Can you expand? How much effect is a level 2 or 4 or 6 fort supposed to have? [&:]

Using the OCS CRTs--which are reasonable from my experience as a systems engineer/systems architect for a couple of artillery command and control systems--a corps artillery regiment (54 medium artillery in the Japanese Army) would expend about 2000 tons of ammo in a week supporting a major attack. That would give it a reasonable chance of suppressing a defending division on an 8 kilometre front--that is reducing the defensive firepower by about a third and generating a couple of battalions or so of casualties--20% of the defending infantry force. If the defence were fortified--any level--the main effect would be to reduce the casualties to a couple of companies, without affecting the suppressive effect that greatly. (Heavy fortifications affect the close assault more than vulnerability to artillery. Greater artillery than can be controlled by spotters produces a rapidly diminishing return.) So a deathstar would operate against two hexes and burn 5000 supply a day, while suppressing the two hexes and producing about 3% casualties a day. Against a fortified position, it would still suppress the position, but produce only about 1-1.5% casualties a day. I don't know what people are seeing, but I suspect the casualties are not that much out of line--it's the supply usage that's likely to be out of whack. Would someone check?

ORIGINAL: stuman
So , imo , if I think the Soviets would not, under any circumstances have UNILATERALLY started a war with Japan in 1942, then I submit that fact has to also be considered when coming up with " 1 to 6 " odds.

You’re missing my point entirely. I totally agree with you that when you apply hindsight to the situation it makes sense that Russia would be less likely to attack in 42 than in 43, and less likely to attack in 43 than in 44, and so on.

But Japan did not make its garrison decisions for Manchukuo based on this hindsight. The moment Russia became an ally of the US and Britain in Europe, Japan feared invasion was imminent. That was their only consideration in what decisions they made. And that’s why they kept a very large force sitting out the war in Manchukuo for the entire war.

That’s why an arbitrary 1 in 6 roll makes more sense to me when it comes to trying to put the same kind of historical pressure on any decision a Japanese player might want to make in game.

You want the odds of activation to be tied to historical realities that hindsight gives you knowledge of today. But Japan didn’t have that luxury when it came to making the decisions they made, to them at the time, from 1942 onwards they were terrified the Soviets would join their allies in the Pacific war at any moment.

So to make the players feel the same pressures the historical Japanese faced during the war, then you have to make activation truly an arbitrary roll that no one can predict. Any other solution (including what we have now) gives the benefit of hindsight to Japan and takes away the historical benefit an over-large paranoid Japanese garrison actually gave the allies during the war.

Jim

ORIGINAL: ckammp

The solution is easy, and obvious:

Play vs. AI.

Playing vs. AI avoids the gamey "unbeatable artillery death star".

Thus, playing vs. AI is the best, most satisfying method of enjoying WitP:AE. [:)]

WHO IN THE WORLD WOULD THINK WE WOULD EVER HERE THIS!!!????

GREAT JOB ANDY - AND I MOST CERTAINLY AGREE WITH CKAMMP![&o]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: stuman
You have to add in a sliding scale based upon which war year one is in. I think the Jap. could have taken every one of their soldiers out of Manchuria in early '42 and replaced them with rice farmers and ugly geisha girls ( the Russians may have come after good looking geishas ) and the Soviets would not have bothered. On the other hand they came through that area like a hot knife through butter 3 and 1/2 years later. So I think ( and I am never wrong of course ) that the Jap. should have much more freedom of action in the first part of '42 than the first part of '45.

Japan could no more have done that in 42 than Germany or Russia could or would have left their east front borders undefended during 40/41. Stalin was absolutely convinced that Germany would not attack, yet he massed 2/3rds of his land army right up on the border with Germany even though his actions leading up to 22 June prove he was 100% positive Germany was not going to attack him.

You and I enjoy a hindsight none of the leaders in the era of WWII could even fathom coming close to. Capable intelligence agencies were something that would develop and evolve during the war and wouldn’t really be dependable until years into the cold war that followed the end of WWII.

All countries were pretty much blind to what was going on inside other countries borders at that time. Japan was terrified the Russians would attack every day of the war. The size and makeup of their Manchukuo garrison armies proves that. Especially the size of the airforce they left there.

Airforces were easy to move in very short periods of time when compared to the complexities of moving the rest of a military force. Yet Japan kept huge numbers of planes in Manchukuo for the entire war, planes they desperately needed elsewhere. No way would they have ever contemplated moving in rice farmers.

Only we gamers with our 20/20 hindsight would ever consider such a move. And as I said above. Would anyone make the move if every unit they freed up had a 1 in 6 chance of activation? That’s the kind of fear Japan actually operated under. Whether or not history justifies their fear doesn’t matter. It was real and palpable to them and dictated their actions during the war.

Jim

Not only was he positive Germany wouldn't attack him, he was preparing to attack Germany first, only the Germans beat him to it. Of course had Stalin gotten his way, the Iron Curtain would have extended from Atlantic to Pacific and from the Mediterranean to the Arctic.

ORIGINAL: Shark7



Not only was he positive Germany wouldn't attack him, he was preparing to attack Germany first, only the Germans beat him to it. Of course had Stalin gotten his way, the Iron Curtain would have extended from Atlantic to Pacific and from the Mediterranean to the Arctic.

Been reading lots of Suvorov eh?

As much as I'd like to believe his works I must admit that most of his books are full of s***

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: stuman
You have to add in a sliding scale based upon which war year one is in. I think the Jap. could have taken every one of their soldiers out of Manchuria in early '42 and replaced them with rice farmers and ugly geisha girls ( the Russians may have come after good looking geishas ) and the Soviets would not have bothered. On the other hand they came through that area like a hot knife through butter 3 and 1/2 years later. So I think ( and I am never wrong of course ) that the Jap. should have much more freedom of action in the first part of '42 than the first part of '45.

Japan could no more have done that in 42 than Germany or Russia could or would have left their east front borders undefended during 40/41. Stalin was absolutely convinced that Germany would not attack, yet he massed 2/3rds of his land army right up on the border with Germany even though his actions leading up to 22 June prove he was 100% positive Germany was not going to attack him.

You and I enjoy a hindsight none of the leaders in the era of WWII could even fathom coming close to. Capable intelligence agencies were something that would develop and evolve during the war and wouldn’t really be dependable until years into the cold war that followed the end of WWII.

All countries were pretty much blind to what was going on inside other countries borders at that time. Japan was terrified the Russians would attack every day of the war. The size and makeup of their Manchukuo garrison armies proves that. Especially the size of the airforce they left there.

Airforces were easy to move in very short periods of time when compared to the complexities of moving the rest of a military force. Yet Japan kept huge numbers of planes in Manchukuo for the entire war, planes they desperately needed elsewhere. No way would they have ever contemplated moving in rice farmers.

Only we gamers with our 20/20 hindsight would ever consider such a move. And as I said above. Would anyone make the move if every unit they freed up had a 1 in 6 chance of activation? That’s the kind of fear Japan actually operated under. Whether or not history justifies their fear doesn’t matter. It was real and palpable to them and dictated their actions during the war.

Jim

Not only was he positive Germany wouldn't attack him, he was preparing to attack Germany first, only the Germans beat him to it. Of course had Stalin gotten his way, the Iron Curtain would have extended from Atlantic to Pacific and from the Mediterranean to the Arctic.

Take a look at the Wikipedia article on 'Victor Suvorov' (Vladimir Bogdanovich Rezun) for a discussion of this thesis. I found his books quite interesting, but his arguments were based on weak evidence. Yes, Soviet Military Doctrine was fundamentally offensive, and yes, the Soviets overrated the combat power of their forces by a factor of about three, but I don't think they were in the final stages of preparation for an invasion of Western Europe in June 1941. 1942, perhaps, but not 1941.

Its not like the Soviets would have had it easy though. Considering that probably the main blow would have come in the north (ie through Poland), their strike forces would have been readily exposed to counterattack. It would have been second Kharkov (possibly near Brest Litovsk) all over again.

Also keep in mind that the purges had reduced the Red army officer corps to a bunch of automatons. They could barely win the war against the Finnish, let alone against the battle hardened Wermacht at its peak strength, with an extra year of vehicle, tank and aircraft production under its belt (including French factories in the equation too). They would have needed 2 years to re-establish their officer cadres - something that they barely managed during the war.

ORIGINAL: String

ORIGINAL: Shark7



Not only was he positive Germany wouldn't attack him, he was preparing to attack Germany first, only the Germans beat him to it. Of course had Stalin gotten his way, the Iron Curtain would have extended from Atlantic to Pacific and from the Mediterranean to the Arctic.

Been reading lots of Suvorov eh?

As much as I'd like to believe his works I must admit that most of his books are full of s***

Never heard of Suvorov, though the articles I've read presented some good evidence. Such as the massing of the Red Army, the pre-positioning of ammo, etc. It is possible that the articles I've read have been based on Suvorov's work though, won't dismiss that possibility.

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: stuman
You have to add in a sliding scale based upon which war year one is in. I think the Jap. could have taken every one of their soldiers out of Manchuria in early '42 and replaced them with rice farmers and ugly geisha girls ( the Russians may have come after good looking geishas ) and the Soviets would not have bothered. On the other hand they came through that area like a hot knife through butter 3 and 1/2 years later. So I think ( and I am never wrong of course ) that the Jap. should have much more freedom of action in the first part of '42 than the first part of '45.

Japan could no more have done that in 42 than Germany or Russia could or would have left their east front borders undefended during 40/41. Stalin was absolutely convinced that Germany would not attack, yet he massed 2/3rds of his land army right up on the border with Germany even though his actions leading up to 22 June prove he was 100% positive Germany was not going to attack him.

You and I enjoy a hindsight none of the leaders in the era of WWII could even fathom coming close to. Capable intelligence agencies were something that would develop and evolve during the war and wouldn’t really be dependable until years into the cold war that followed the end of WWII.

Not only was he positive Germany wouldn't attack him, he was preparing to attack Germany first, only the Germans beat him to it. Of course had Stalin gotten his way, the Iron Curtain would have extended from Atlantic to Pacific and from the Mediterranean to the Arctic.

"HINDSIGHT" is the key word. We are all arguing about what WE would have done based on more that 65 years of "hindsight" the real commanders didn't have. If they had, Germany would have lost to the Russians much sooner. Any competent commander with "hindsight" wouldn't have moved the bulk of the Russian Army forward into occupied Poland and Roumania and such..., he'd have left it massed along the "Stalin Line" with all it's supports. The "buffer territories" would have been held by mobile demolition units and NKVD, with "scorched earth" and delay orders.

With a week instead of an hour to get organized, the Russians would have been much better able to deal with the panzer spearheads when they arrived a week ahead of the following infantry. The Germans were very good, and might well have broken through anyway..., but with time to get organized and prepared the Russians would be much better able to fall back intact..., or counter attack.

Why do you think no "Russian Front" simulation EVER allows the Soviets a "free set-up"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPPL
Art should inflict much less casualties in the open than in a city.

quote:
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
My goodness. What artillery units have you served in??? You seem to have gotten this exactly backwards!!!

This seems to be cross-communication of actual effects based upon tactics (mobile v. static) v. physical effects of bombardment in theory. In the China theatre, most of the fighting in the countryside was fluid, with a lot of guerilla fighting by the Chinese on defense with occasional ambushes and surprise counterattack. In the cities, it was more static, "hold at all costs" fighting. So, sure, if the Chinese tried to hold at all cost in the countryside, or attacked into a prepared Japanese position, the casualties would be much greater. And I'm sure that the Japs did not stack up as well as the US Army for use of artillery in mobile fighting. Most WWII armies were not particularly good at hasty artillery fire - the US led the way towards more effective techniques.

So in practice, I think you would find that Japanese artillery was less effective in the countryside in China than in city fighting.

[But I've said before, I think it's nearly impossible to model close assault in the island setting and guerilla warfare in the expanses of China in the same land combat engine.]

Think of it as fighting in Hue during Tet v. a search and destroy op in the countryside.