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To be fair to Admiral Kurita who commanded the force at Samar, he thought he had run directly into Halsey's 5th Fleet.

Well thats precisely the point isnt it ... most of war comes down to mistakes and luck and other things a game with a few dice rolls is never going to simulate. All a game can do is allow for some random chance in a vain effort to simulate it. I have to admit when I read the rant in the O post I expected the screen shot to reveal some horrific result that totally destroyed my will to play the game. Personally I would rather play a game where this could happen than a game that simply produced a rock and scissors result that was absolutely predictable very time you went into a fight.

[font="arial"]From the bible of British artillery on the web http://nigelef.tripod.com/index.htm

"An often asked question is about the effect of indirect artillery fire on tanks.  One example helps, in 1944 the German IX Corps in Italy reported that artillery fire was the largest single cause of its tanks losses, it seems that this was usually from medium and heavy guns controlled by air OPs.  The second largest source was German destruction of damaged or broken-down tanks to prevent their capture (mechanical reliability was not a feature of German tanks)"[/font]

ORIGINAL: dlazov66
The most notable is when we were playing a Budapest scenario and I had a JapPz with a German 9-2 armor leader (buttoned up) and moved on to the board and expended all my MP to get on top of a hill, I pivoted and then fired at a T-34/85 with a 9-2 Armor Leader in it at 26 hexes (we were playing a threesome, I was the Germans and the SS, and my two buddies were playing the Russians and the Soviet Guards (that is how we split up the forces) I had no chance of hitting the damn thing, but guess what I rolled snake eyes twice and a 1 for a burning wreck. The Soviet commander retreated to a couch lit up a smoke and went to sleep, my other buddy was so pissed at him, since it was only the first turn and if failed his PMC (personal morale check)....

EDIT: Now that is some Utter Madness!

[:D] Nice story. You ASLers have the best anecdotes, hands down. I was told about a Prokhorovka scenario game that turned sour - they almost got to actually fight themselves - just because of a "very lucky" 82mm Mortar platoon...

Usually it's wise to have a good buddy you can call names and still be friends when your done. My good buddy I play weekly face to face with is an old Navy sea dog and I am an old Army dog some of the names we lovingly call each other and the way we talk at the game table would make your hair and toes curl and you would not think were best buddies. I can't use the language here but he is a pathetic attempt:

Don "Wind Check,  NE"
Joe "Dumb A$$ you wasted a 5"
Don "F#ck You bright eyes"
Don "Okay I got to rally that broke dick 8-0 over here, damn 9, stupid b@$trd is such a chick sh1t"
Joe "Ha, your just a dumb A$$, Hell I would tell you to kiss off too"
Don "Kiss this M0th3rF#ck3r"
Don "Okay I am done with my rally, are you done yet b@$trd?"
Joe "Yeah, look my 2 broke dm squads just ralled, their going cut your throat in CC now"
Don "Prep Fire, okay I got 16 +2 here, sh1t those dumb a$$es can't hit sh1t"
Joe "Maybe you need another beer?"
Don "Trying to trick me? Okay I got a 8 up one over there on those b@$trds in the woods, oh sorry I rolled a 3 so thats a 2MC"
Joe "Great, that squad rolled a 11 which ELR you suck!"

Okay, you get the idea that was the cleaned up version.

Right now were in the middle of a Ilu Campaign Game, it's the Japanese and Marines in the Guadalcanal when the Japanese attacked across the Ilu river in that famous attack. It has 3 night scenarios and 2 day ones. On the first night attack I as the Japanese had 18 squads and I screwed up my setup not understanding who this scenario would work, in the end I did get across the river, but I had lost 16.5 squads leaving me with 1.5 squads left. Out of 6 leaders I had 2 left, both striped (in ASL Japanese leaders don't break they flip over to their wounded side or stripped sided).

We just finished the second night scenario and I got across the river again and got 2 strategic locations but I lost 75% of my force doing it. He had three modules of artillery, lucky for me one red carded right away and was gone, the other got one fire mission off before red carding and the last one was a puny 70mm one that killed a crap load of my squads and leaders.

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

JAMiAM: I'll set up a game. In my opinion, random weather just makes 1941 more difficult for the Axis...

Good...then you'll have no excuses, and I will...[;)]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
...and I prefer historical weather for both sides, but if you want to play random weather, that's fine too...

I prefer random weather for a couple of reasons. First off, I sort of like not knowing what to expect. The original commanders couldn't predict the weather, nor plan weeks in advance for an exact weather change on a particular date, and neither should we. Secondly, going hand in hand with that, I feel that the non-random weather lends itself to a whole "paint-by-numbers" mentality on the part of players. Or, perhaps that should be "war-by-numbers"...[:D]

Locking oneself into a mode of thinking that something must be done a certain way, is a sure fire way of allowing oneself to be constantly, and unpleasantly, surprised when his opponent refuses to stay within the lines, so to speak. I tend to do a bit of metagaming when I'm playing against live opponents, so keeping it real, fresh and unpredictable makes the game much more exciting, in my opinion.

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I'll start with locked HQ's. If you don't want locked HQ's you can fix that in a few seconds in the CR screen, and there's no automated support unit movement on turn 1.

Sounds good. Let me know in a PM when you've actually set up the game. Please set a password for it, and set it up on the Slitherine server, when you have a chance. I didn't see any open challenges that looked like you. Do you use a different name on the server? I have the same username both places.

Finally, I would be interested in doing an AAR with you, if you have the time. We can make them so that each of us stays out of the others thread, if you'd like, or institute a couple of turn delay. Your choice, in any event.

Look forward to the challenge.

Regards,
James

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

I find it odd how when Leyte Gulf comes up the first battle...where the US battleline of aging Battleships obliterated the Japanese is never mentioned.  The second force then sailed right by the burning wreckage of the Fuso on their way to that meeting with the jeep carriers.  It is purely speculative on my part...but I kinda think that experience had something to do with their retreat from the destroyer screen.  I, again guessing, figure its highly likely they retreated from the DDs more because they were afraid of what they thought was behind them (and which they knew had just vaporized half the attack force) then from the efforts of the ships they were facing. 

Kurita's force took a different route. They didn't sail past the burning Fuso.

ORIGINAL: Shellshock

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely
I find it odd how when Leyte Gulf comes up the first battle...where the US battleline of aging Battleships obliterated the Japanese is never mentioned.  The second force then sailed right by the burning wreckage of the Fuso on their way to that meeting with the jeep carriers.  It is purely speculative on my part...but I kinda think that experience had something to do with their retreat from the destroyer screen.  I, again guessing, figure its highly likely they retreated from the DDs more because they were afraid of what they thought was behind them (and which they knew had just vaporized half the attack force) then from the efforts of the ships they were facing.  I could be wrong...it is just the thought that I can't help but having over the situation.

The Japanese fleet at Leyte Gulf acted in an odd manner. Sometimes reckless, sometimes timid. Two cruisers were lost to submarines before the battle was even joined because lttle effort was made to bother with an proper ASW screen.

To be fair to Admiral Kurita who commanded the force at Samar, he thought he had run directly into Halsey's 5th Fleet. That those escort carriers and destroyers in front of him were fleet carriers, battleships and cruisers. However, his orders were to smash his way through to the landing beaches on Leyte and there was no point in retreating and saving his ships for later, as events proved. By 1945 they were all eventually sunk or laid up for lack of fuel. Plus catching 5th Fleet's carriers in daylight in a surface action should have been seen as a golden opportunity. (even if only in error.)

A commander should be judged by the information he has at the time. Not 60+ years hindsight.
Kurita did not know what he was facing
He had heard NOTHING from the other task forces
All his planes had been lost to various mishaps
His force was NOT pristine when they arrived
All he knew was that he was getting beat up by an unknown force and some of his ships were starting
to sink.
You think its easy to command a battle line?
He knew that he was losing more than he was sinking. He did know that.
He had already lost the Mushashi. That had to have affected his thinking

I know WitP(:AE)'s also a popular game that many of us play, but it also has its own forum...where this subject has probably been brought up about a million times, at the least.

[:D]

I'm afraid you'll have to deal with us WitpAE folk, Comrade. There are a lot of us over here.

The more people here, the merrier, it's just that this thread isn't about Leyte Gulf, as interesting as the statements here might be. I have no idea what this thread is about at this point, but still.

Yes, WitP:AE'ers, there are threads out there that in no way involve the Japanese, the Allies and peculiar naval engagements where one group of debaters says the result was entirely predictable, and another group says the result was completely out of whack considering the circumstances (judging by the WitP:AE forums, the middle ground is rarely stood on).

Comarade P, I think you got it wrong. Now people were giving examples that prove the unexpected may happen. A reply to someone you might know, by the way, so no need of names [;)]

One of those examples was the Samar combat (but as I have said, it was a bad example)...

And then people just continued, not necessarily respecting the thread. But the question is: how many threads do really respect the topic? It always happens. at least I have seen this thing since 2004. It's what makes these forums (Matrix forums) different and highly entertaining [8D]

Yes, Mynok, some people in the WitP forum think we are traitors or something worse... [:D]

Threads going OT within reasonable limits is not much of a problem, I was just surprised at the leap that was taken from Eastern Front combat to naval combat. Especially considering that WitE doesn't have naval combat of any kind (maybe that's what attracts some WitP:AE'ers: they think they have less to worry about now that they don't have to spend hours plotting convoys and praying KB doesn't show up;)).

Wrong answer (I can tell because I know these people). We are here because WitE IS the other BIG boy in the neighbourhood [:)]

We have been waiting for this game since the days of WIR. I personally consider both WitP and WitE on the same league. The two games I have always wanted. And now they are finally a reality. The paradise...

The "convoys", I guess you refer to the logistics is an amazing part of that other great game (WitP) [8D] It's not boring at all, by the way, it's incredibly exciting and rewarding [8D]

EDITED: I almost forgot, when WitE was released a WitE Thread was created in the WitP forum. A thread which is still active (since 8 or 9 december). No one said "OT, this is WitP forum" [:)]

Mea Cupia Maxima for mentioning Leyte gulf.

The real point is that there were in WW2 results that if reproduced in a game would result in much wailing and gnashing of teeth by the players. Midway just happens to be the most extreme example of such. If I had my books I would have pulled up examples from the eastern front but my memory while good is not that good. I do recall that the German advance stalled at Tula due to the defenders stuborn unwillingness to run away. And even the encirclement at Smolensk was a nightmare, since the units on the edge were hit continously by parts of russian units attempting to break free.

I must admit I also have been waiting this game since playing...I'm not sure of the name anymore but the Atari game that was the precurser to WIR.

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

'maybe that's what attracts some WitP:AE'ers: they think they have less to worry about now that they don't have to spend hours plotting convoys and praying KB doesn't show up'.

Don't have to worry about the 1st Carrier Striking Force (KB) showing-up mate, as that force belongs to me!



EDIT; I think that what attracts us WitP:AE brothers is that in WitE we have another operational wargame, that is of the same high standard, and the complexity of AE.

ORIGINAL: Shellshock

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely
Could not possibly happen in the real world...much like it surely can't be possible to loose 4 fleet carriers off some dinky island midway across the pacific to an utterly uncoordinated (and botched) attempt at launching an air strike from 3 dispersed CVBGs...nah if that happened clearly the game is borked and the AI is cheating.

Or cite a less famous example, that a force of 4 battleships, 8 cruisers, and 11 destroyers in a daylight surface engagement eventually retreated in the face of 6 puny escort carriers, 3 destroyers and 4 escort destroyers as happened in the battle off Samar. World War II was totally borked.Since these players can't rant on their generals for their supposed failures as Hitler did, I suppose they have to rant on the system.

I agree, things in that damn war often went awry.

No one said "OT, this is WitP forum"

Well, that entire thread was dedicated to it, like you said. This thread is dedicated to...utter madness.

I'm still waiting for someone to post "Cthulhu fhtagn"

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

No one said "OT, this is WitP forum"

Well, that entire thread was dedicated to it, like you said. This thread is dedicated to...utter madness.

I'm still waiting for someone to post "Cthulhu fhtagn"

You had better be careful throwing that name around !

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I'm still waiting for someone to post "Cthulhu fhtagn"

And I'm still waiting for a Sparta Kick [8D] This is madness!!

Thoroughly entertaining, we don't have blues like this in WITP-AE, very often anyway[:D]