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Location: Fuhrerhauptquartier Wehrwolf, Vinnitsa, Ukraine

OKH Planning Conference for 1942 Summer Offensive: Fall Turkis (Case Turquoise)

Gentlemen!

A long winter campaign is nearly behind us, and it is time to start our planning for the Summer 1942 Campaign: Fall Turkis.

Our primary objective is the destruction of the Soviet Army. We plan to accomplish this by:

1. The encirclement and destruction of units, and
2. The taking of major population centers, to limit Red Army recruitment

We do not anticipate repeating the success of our summer campaign in terms of taking industry, where 52 Bolshevik Armament factories fell into our hands. The wily Reds are too alert to this now, and will simply move whatever is threatened. Should we threaten Stalingrad there is alot of industry there still, but we would expect to not capture that; only disrupt the production.

So, the primary objective is to destroy Reds, and Soviet Manpower. Where best to accomplish this?

I will post some maps as Winter closes, but generally we hold a line: Kaluga, Orel, Kursk, Kharkov, Donbas. We figure to lose OREL, and we will finish about 3-5 hexes in front of Kursk, Kharkov, and the Donbas.

What do you think?

Some possibilities:

MOSCOW
Pros: Lots of Manpower in Moscow. Should be holdable for awhile.
Cons: Tough terrain; lots of light woods and rivers. Lots of forts. Figures to be a grind.
Distance: We are about 6 hexes from Moscow at the nearest point; a bit far for a slugging match.

OREL/TULA:
Pros: Open terrain, can use thrust to threaten Moscow from south if things go very well
Cons: We have already taken Orel and Tula, so they are a bit burned out as it is.

TAMBOV/LIPETSK/VORONEZH:
Pros: All are untouched cities, so we can torch alot of population there. Terrain is OK
Cons: Would create a bulge. Some light woods and good rivers make it less than perfect from a terrain standpoint.

BOGUCHAR/STALINGRAD:
Pros: Other than the Don River, it's wide open terrain. Fun on the steppe!
Cons: Short of Stalingrad, there is virtually nothing. This would have to be about unit destruction.

ROSTOV/SOUTH:
Pros: Rostov is a great target; lower Don s very defensible
Cons: Getting across the Don figures to be tough. You pretty much have to cross in the few hexes between Rostov and the junction with the Donets

We have to assume that any major attack will be greeted by hordes of units. For this reason, we may attack in a couple areas. Maybe we can at least force him to move units all over, and spend APs.

Anyway, your thoughts please!

Based on my limited experience of German ply, it would be essential to try and hide the true axis of your attack for as long as possible.

Not easy, but its probably going to be essential to achieve operational surprise

I'm also having phenomenal air results in the blizzard with all the bombers parked in Berlin, and all fighters in the front. From 1:25 to 1:40 in loss ratio, with my fighter wings sitting at 90+ moral (and the bomber pool filling up for 42)

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Anyway, your thoughts please!

I have no idea [:)] I guess what you need to know is what will cripple the most the Soviets AND what will help you the most. Moscow 3 city hexes have a lot of manpower (90), but what's that? The 10% of Soviet Union manpower? It would not cripple them. The destrucion of Red Army units might do that (Larry's AARs are instructive here). He would be facing a dilemma: rebuild these lost hordes therefore ignore an upgrade of the Red Army (absolutely required if he wants to get to Berlin). Or forget them and upgrade what's left. Maybe not enough strong to invade the Reich?

Others might also say "advance eastwards". This would make sure Soviet HQs are not advancing their cocktail cabinets towards Berlin [:D] Au contraire. This we can see in Tarhunnas' game vs Gids. The latter might not even get to the Reich itself.

Choices, choices... good luck [8D]

ORIGINAL: Jajusha
I'm also having phenomenal air results in the blizzard with all the bombers parked in Berlin, and all fighters in the front. From 1:25 to 1:40 in loss ratio, with my fighter wings sitting at 90+ moral (and the bomber pool filling up for 42)

I wonder if it's the way to go. I did it because my bombers were so decimiated from the "air command bug" that was quashed (and maybe my management too. Plus, I think B-G really knows what he is doing with airpower).

But the Me-109s are eating the VVS for lunch; every Fighter unit is 95+ Morale, and several are 90+ Experience.

BTW, I have also NOT run any recon flights this Blizzard. I don't see the point in particular, it gets obvious fast where the Russians are really pushing. It's where the Shock Armies are. As a result of the lack fo RECON flights, those units are also in good shape.

My bomber units are all 100% full of planes, with more in the pool. Morale in every unit is 80+. We are ready for action......

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Anyway, your thoughts please!

I have no idea [:)] I guess what you need to know is what will cripple the most the Soviets AND what will help you the most. Moscow 3 city hexes have a lot of manpower (90), but what's that? The 10% of Soviet Union manpower? It would not cripple them. The destrucion of Red Army units might do that (Larry's AARs are instructive here). He would be facing a dilemma: rebuild these lost hordes therefore ignore an upgrade of the Red Army (absolutely required if he wants to get to Berlin). Or forget them and upgrade what's left. Maybe not enough strong to invade the Reich?

Others might also say "advance eastwards". This would make sure Soviet HQs are not advancing their cocktail cabinets towards Berlin [:D] Au contraire. This we can see in Tarhunnas' game vs Gids. The latter might not even get to the Reich itself.

Choices, choices... good luck [8D]

I am thinking the same thing on Moscow: Important, but not decisive. And, it figures to be a huge grind, more than likely to result in just lots of my tanks burnt, and my Landsers in poor condition. No, I think I'm taking a pass on Moscow.

I may try an attack around Rhzev, for the sole purpose of confusing the Russians and drawing off reinforcements. Not sure.

I do agree that it is important to decieve. I have a few ideas here, but it's tough to conceal a massive Panzer buildup.

Having played 6 42s so far I would say if you dont attack during the snow then every single clear turn your in big trouble.

The red army by June will easly be 7+ million, because of hill billy tactics used by russians now.

The only times I had a good 42 was because I kept nailing the forts every chance I had so once summer rolled around it did not take more then 2 turns to get past fort belt.

Before 1.05 vs forts level 3 and 4 the ratio was 2.5 to 1 and not after 1.05 vs forts level 2 and 3 its for me atleast 1.5 to 1 ration. which makes attacking during 42 not really worth it because withen 3 to 4 turns your army is spent.

This static 42 could be changed IF national moral worked for Germans as it does for Russians. Also the ratio change if confermed was a really stupid idea.

Attack attack attack as soon as you can or you be a punching bag for 175 turns.

Pelton

I agree with you Q-Ball on the number of attacks being way too low. He does not have guards formations to make the Germans work harder during 1942 and it is going to cost him I think. (How much remains to be seen).

I think Pelton is more or less correct. With a big army like that, you can't let him dig in. Time is on the Russian side. I don't know that you have geographical targets in 1942, but rather it is the destruction of the Red Army and you don't really care where. The big thing imo is that you are going to have to do sort of like what the Germans did early in the 1942 campaign with phased offensives. I think you go with short small offensives looking to cut up the Russian lines in smallish pockets. Get him using his points to build new units and strain his armaments in trying to fill them up. Don't chase him all over the map. If he retreats in a given sector, attack in another and kill some more units while casually moving up as best as you can.

I also think you look for a section of the line to put in static for at least a bit (probably up north) to help cut down on your attrition, although you could sort of use this as a trap to perhaps lull the Russian into doing the same thing across from you only to have fresh forces show up and take advantage of the situation.

Great AAR by both players and looking forward to what happens in 1942.

I am not an expert at all, but it looks to me that the best strategy would be that of the nibble : With overwehlming force, aim for a voluntarily small but watertight encirclement that allows to destroy 3 to 5 hexes worth of units. Such an encirclement shold certainly be the objective of the snow turns... Rinse and repeat that during the summer, and even with a pretty stable front line, of which a significant part could go static, the german player should be able to check the growth of the Red Army. in 42 500 000 soldiers encircled in one go is unlickely, but several 100 000 to 150 000 should be easily and methodically achieved, especially with some high quality infantry to breach the front.

Hi Q-Ball! Long time no see. Anyway, I've been reading your wonderful AAR and it just stopped. Get going! I want to see what happens! [:D]

Anyway, from my non-existent experience, I'd recommend you kill units. I'd go the Stalingrad route, but just to encircle and capture troops, not to capture Stalingrad. We all know how well that worked out historically. [:-]

If you can eliminate a significant number of units, you will slow or potentially stop his counterattack in 43-44 long enough to win the game.

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Hi Q-Ball! Long time no see. Anyway, I've been reading your wonderful AAR and it just stopped. Get going! I want to see what happens! [:D]

Anyway, from my non-existent experience, I'd recommend you kill units. I'd go the Stalingrad route, but just to encircle and capture troops, not to capture Stalingrad. We all know how well that worked out historically. [:-]

If you can eliminate a significant number of units, you will slow or potentially stop his counterattack in 43-44 long enough to win the game.

Wow, Old WITP-AE'er! How's it going, Major? I agree the attack is coming in the SOUTH. I haven't settled yet on Voronezh/Tambov, or a thrust toward Boguchar/Rostov, but I am leaning toward the latter. That will stretch the line out, but I can always use the Axis Allies to protect the flanks. What's the worst that can happen?

T35: 2/12/42

This game has gone a bit slow this week, due to B-G's real life business. It's still very much going.

This turn, the Soviets launched only a few attacks around Orel. The Winter Offensive is pretty much done, other than OREL. He made no progress at all, so I may actually have a chance at holding the town. I may as well, since being outside still costs morale.

I will post more of an update next turn.

OKH Conference; Vinnitsa, Ukriane:

Gentlemen! As I mentioned, we are planning for an offensive in Army Group South's Sector. This will come as no surprise at all to the Russians, but offers the best chance of bagging a number of units. We are going to attempt to decieve the Russian, however, on our ultimate objective until the attacks begin, by using "dummy" formations at certain spots.

We still have a couple choices of direction: Either North of Voronezh (where there are the most un-sacked population), or South of there (the wide open spaces toward Boguchar, or Rostov and the steppes beyond).

I am leaning toward Rostov, and the Steppes; first, that will net me another Army Group HQ; second, that area is the most difficult to quickly rail reinforcements to. Decisions decisions.......

As a side note, I also need to decide what to do, if any, with the Crimea. I am dug-in on the Perekop and the exits; I could just stay there all of 1942 I am sure, or advance. I am inclined to stay-put, but I also hate having that there on my flank.

Wehrmacht Re-Org:

The Wehrmacht is undergoing a major re-org at the moment. I have been savings some APs for this, and now using them. Alot.

Before the Blizzard, I broke-up 18th Army and sent it's Corps in various directions. Now, I am re-establishing 18th Army on the line, and rationalizing structure.

Looking ahead, the Germans have more Infantry and Panzer divisions than they have command capacity for in 1942. As a result, I need to economize on a few things, and decide how to keep command overload to a minimum. Either some infantry will have to serve under foreign command, or German HQs are overloaded.

Here are the steps I am taking:

*I am putting 6-8 weak German Divisions under FINNISH command. This is for several reasons: The FINNS need relief; keeping them fully on the front is bad for morale, and because they can't go into STATIC, bad for losses, too. I am pulling much of the Finnish Army, and sending several depleted divisions up toward this quiet sector in the woods. The Finns do have good leadership, though, so I can transfer Germans there and keep the German HQs from being overburdened. So, everything north of the NO-MOVE line will be under Finnish Command (but be about 1/2 German).

*18th Army is being re-assembled from various pieces in 2nd Army sector around Rhzev. This was the cheapest way to re-deploy 18th Army in AGN, and free-up an army command for service in the South.

*2nd Army HQ, with 2 empty Corps HQ, is moving SOUTH, and will pick-up a new HQ unit, and about 12 new Infantry Divisions. It will be my main infantry offensive force. I need to move around some SUs to give it some muscle there.

*3rd Panzer will stay in front of Moscow, but lose most of it's Panzers. I am keeping only 1 Panzer Corps north of Tula, as a reserve, and it will have my weakest mobile units. 3rd Panzer will have 3 Infantry Corps, and be mostly an Infantry Army.

*Everything north of Kaluga is set to 60% MAX TOE, and once I have sorted-out Corps boundaries, will be STATIC.

*4th Panzer is moving SOUTH; it has spare capacity, and will pick-up a Panzer corps from 3rd Panzer.

*All NEW Infantry Divisions are sent SOUTH. They will take the place of depleted divisions that I am sending north to man Static sectors. In this way, 6th Army will be pretty "Fresh", which it isn't right now.

*In general, my 3 Panzer Armies will all now have 3-4 Panzer Corps, and a full complement of at least 12 Mobile Divisions, with probably Zero infantry.

*3rd and 4th Romanian are transferred to Army Group Antonescu, releiving some burden on AGS

*Most of the Luftwaffe are going to be committed to AGS. I am starting to deploy bombers, but I expect almost all to be in the South.

I plan to re-arrange some leaders once I have the units in place, but I think I am fairly set, aside from 2nd Army. The Panzer Formations already have excellent leaders, as I replaced many in the Summer.

Any other thoughts on Axis command?

Support Units:

Could use some feedback here. What do you guys think?

My "Defensive" Armies, I am going to strip them of Pioneers, Stugs, and Nebelwerfers, leaving Construction, Artillery, and Flak (I try to have at least 1 88mm equipped Flak Bn with every Corps; good for AT defense). I'll leave any Jagdpanzer units, as I don't have enough replacements to commit them all to heavy combat anyway.

I plan to load-up anything offensive with Nebelwerfers, Pioneers, and Stugs, with some Infantry getting Heavy Howitzers for Fort Busting.

If you plan on making a push in the south to at least activate the extra AG HQ, then I would consider leaving AGS overloaded while "fixing" AGC and AGN. Why? The rules have all of AGS going to the OKH when AGB activates and you can then reassign on a per army basis to which army group you want. In the past, I had moved Rumanian 3rd and 4th Army to the Rumanian command as well, but this would save a ton of points and give them one final chance at a good leadership roll. The other issue is removing them out of the German AG's mean they likely won't enjoy Luftwaffe support either.

Other observations include using your Stug units (and to a lessor extent, pioneer units) to pump up your motorized formations, especially units that you will have for the long haul. The way tank attrition has become in this game, the panzer formations go to crap pretty quickly with a lot of broken tanks. I like the rest of what you are doing up there, including some of the deception practices.

I would leave the Crimea alone. He isn't going anywhere and all you do is waste extra troops making the push. On top of that, I think it is cheaper in terms of troops needed to garrision/defend where you are verses than actually taking the Crimea and then having to deal with Russian amphib actions. Even if you use a lot of Rumanians, the Crimea just has a ton of frontage to defend. It only makes sense to take the Crimea if you plan to make a drive south towards the oil, and you are not looking to do that.

I generally put Model in charge of the 18th and then the next best 4 infantry commanders in charge of the 4 corps.

1 poineer per division, stugs and the flam panzers. best artillary in HQ's.

Also you need to boat loads of art in your best pz divisions and atleast 1 pineer per corps.

I am not convinced that small pockets will do the trick.

If your able to punch a 3 to 4 hex wide hole through his fort belt which will be 4 to 6 hexes deep hes puddy in your hands.
You have 4 turns of snow. to get 6 hexes deep. Once you get through his hole fort belt is next to usless in the area of breakthrough.

The weather sucks so he never be able to recover. bag some more hexes the first clear turn and mybee a pocket.

Both tactics work. The small pockets will not break the reds back, but if you can punch through the belt during snow you should be able to deliever the death blow during summer.

I have used the big punch and the small both work, but the big blow quickly ends game.

Pelton

Don't forget the Hungarians Q-Ball - they can hold the line a whole lot better than Rumanians. Attaching German Divisions as "corsets" to the both of those armies allow them to hold off Soviet counterattacks in the Summer '42 - no bets after Rifle Corps start arriving.

The one disadvantage to attacking in the south is "what is going to keep the Soviets from pulling East faster than you can attack?" I'd fight on the Don, then once breached, run like hell. And those rivers should be challenging as a less than aggressive Soviet blizzard attack probably means he's digging. 1.05 should help prevent the maginot line from being constructed, but its not going to be a pushover either. He's had since Nov to dig....

Q-Ball, a few notes:

First, a minor one: If you had 120 Guards Rifle divisions by early 1942, that was a bug.

-You can't compare Bletchley Geek's offensive to yours as in your game with Tarhunnas, both you and him were much better at attacking than defending. Tarhunnas preparations for the winter were minimal, and he paid for it. You actually prepared for it, and Bletchley Geek probably wants to avoid "attacking himself to death." You said you would've pushed more, but you have to keep in mind what doing so gets the Soviets. In most cases, real gains will be mostly non-existent. You can recapture what he captured in a month in just one turn.

-Keep in mind that you could, theoretically, assign an infantry division directly to each army HQ as the command cap increases by 3 for armies in mid 1942.

-Setting most/all units in an area to static is now a VERY, VERY bad idea as static units DON'T automatically become unstatic when forced to withdraw. When the Soviets get rolling in an area where you have a lot of static units, you'll be scrambling to make them mobile again and you quite probably won't have the AP's to do so at that point. Vehicle production will increase in 1942 and having mobile units with somewhat lower MP's is a hundred times better than having static infantry formations that can get whacked.

-Don't attack for the sake of attacking. With the first Rifle corps probably appearing soon, and your losses increasing due to high ROF elements and a bit higher overall Soviet experience levels, your casualty/loss ratios will more or less by default be more unfavourable than in 1941. Attacking units in forts can quickly become dangerous. Experiment with attacks, see what works and what doesn't, but keep in mind that you don't need to attack all across the front.

-In non-clear weather turns (it also works in clear, but less well because there are no additional MP penalties due to the weather), keep in mind that you can pull the same trick on the Soviets that they have pulled on you during the blizzard, as you can ZOC lock enemy units and prevent their escape even with infantry units. In my next game as the Axis, I'll experiment with doing so in 1941, as the results could be quite good.

-Don't worry too much about Soviet OOB strength, worry about CV's that you can see. I have a 7 million man army against the AI in the first blizzard as the Soviets, but it would by no means be a steamroller in the summer. There are just a lot of guys at the front. The huge size of the Soviet army will mostly be a problem when morale/experience goes up.

-Pick a target that matters. Just like you shouldn't attack for the sake of attacking, don't advance for the sake of advancing. Advancing towards the Caucasus, with a minimal chance that you'll capture it, just gives you a large exposed flank. Capturing cities or towns is fine, but always keep in mind what capturing a certain area will do for your war effort. Capturing the Rostov area gives you another AG and it gives you a fairly solid flank on a major river. That's a good idea. Moving further to the east doesn't really get you much.

-Stop wasting divisions by moving them into traps or not paying attention. You can't afford it, and it's just poor play. There is no need to, ever, lose a division as the Axis before the Soviets start attacking in 1943 or so.

Some good comments there ComradeP, I appreciate it.

RE: HQ limits, good tip. That means 3 fully-loaded Corps, plus another division. It's still tough, because I will actually have 44 total Corps HQs (33 Inf, and 11 Panzer), and 12 Armies (4 Panzer, 8 Infantry). So, that means some HQs are going to serve under foreign command, or some Army HQs are going to be overloaded. Or both.

I am sending at least 1, maybe 2 Corps HQ to serve under Finnish leadership, which should lift some burden. A few divisions will be mixed-in with Romanian or Hungarian formations. Otherwise, I plan on having Armies in AGC overloaded a bit.

RE: STATIC: I hear you, but I think the benefits outweight the risks, provided I keep APs on hand. I think if the Germans static much of the front, you better keep 100 APs in the pool at all times, in order to free them. Once I make all these org changes, I expect to begin accumulating surplus, as I won't have to think about building fort zones until Summer (when I will start in AGC). I am already in a pretty good place with leaders.

Fall Turkis (Case Turquoise):

I think that advice on Rostov is sound, and seals it for me. The initial target will be Rostov.

1st Panzer Army is gathered around the Donbas, and is in pretty sound shape. I will add a fresh infantry Corps, and use the Snow turns to push over the Mius. I also plan a SNOW attack around OREL, mostly to get the Russians off the rail line I have there, and force them back on Tula.

But in the Summer, I plan the following stages:

-Initial Attack toward Rostov, with the objective of taking Rostov and securing the Don/Donets area as good defensive terrain for later.

-Attack north of Voroshiovgrad, toward the great space south of Boguchar. The objective here is flanking the Donets if I want to continue east, and threaten Stalingrad. I don't really want to take, and I certainly don't want to attempt to hold, Stalingrad. But I would like to force him to evacuate the industry; that would be a nice bonus.

-If this Southern Offensive is successful, he will be rushing reinforcements to secure the Don. If that is the case, I will shift the attack north toward Voronezh, and attempt to take that. There is a good chance we won't get to Phase 2, but you never know.

FORCES:

To accomplish this, I need to beef-up 11th, 17th, and 6th Armies.

We are going to remove from these armies many divisions that are depleted and/or have poor morale, and send them to the CENTER and NORTH, swapping them with better formations, and also creating a small reserve up there in case the Russians cause some trouble. Their places will be taken by fresh formations from Germany, which will have morale in the 70-75 range, and full strength. We also have our "Sturm Corps" of very high morale Infantry saved all winter, and a "Baby Sturm Corps" of 4 more 80-ish morale infantry divisions.

For the MOBILE forces, I am leaving a single Panzer Corps in AGC, and nothing in AGN. As Panzer Divisions lose AFVs in our summer offensive, I will probably send them north to refit and keep an eye on things. The total heading into Summer is approx. 21 Panzer and 13 Mot Divs (give or take, depending on date); I will leave 2 Panzer and 2 Mot Divs up north, plus all the SS Motorized Brigades, and the rest will be on the attack. That's roughly 28 Mobile Divisions in 7 Corps, organized in 3 Panzer Armies.

Another thing to keep in mind is that attaching corps/army HQ's to OKH isn't necessarily a bad thing. I tend to park OKH in Smolensk and assign some corps to it that guards the no mans land between AGN and AGC north of Moscow. If I capture Moscow, odds are good that I use the OKH-assigned corps and their attached units to guards the area, so AGC can focus on the central part of the map. It's impossible to overload OKH.

If AG A and AG B arrive, you could also assign corps/army HQ's directly to them, of course.

If you rotate forces and keep about an army in reserve (attached to OKH), your C&C problems will also be reduced a bit, at least until your first army HQ withdraws.

T36: 2/19/42

All Quiet on the Eastern Front. There were no Soviet attacks this turn; not even recon flights. Nothing.

So, the Winter Offensive is probably over. I will post a more complete analysis after I go through the last turn of attrition. Our losses this turn were 40,000, so even though it's February, attrition is still taking a bite.

We are moving units forward in earnest; every 3+ size town in AGS sector anywhere close to the front has a unit seeking shelter. Next turn, I can bring everyone out in the open, since it will be 2/26, and all the Morale losses will be done.

More complete numbers will be posted, but Soviet OOB stands at 5.6 mil, and German at 3.2 mil. Germany has 2,000 Tanks; we could use more for Summer, but not much I can do about that.

Production:

We have 90,000 Armaments in the pool, so it's time to turn Artillery TOEs back up. They have been 50% since the start of the war, and many units are pretty depleted. I left them low for winter; no sense getting Artillery damaged, but now it's time to re-build it back up. My Armament pool should pretty much empty next turn with that happening.

We have 150,000 Germans in the Transit Pool, so they are on their way to the front.

TOE Adjustments:

16th and 18th Army TOEs are set to 60%, except for the Artillery in those armies. 9th Army, 3rd "Panzer" are set to 80%. 4th Army will probably be set to 80%, but we are attacking first out of Orel.

About 10 German Divisions are headed to the Finnish sectors, to relieve the poor tired Finns.

The Finnish troops I am withdrawing are going to get a very very early start on fortifications for "Fortress Finland". I am obviously thinking ahead! But by the time 1944 rolls around, I plan to have very very thick forts around Finland, and relatively rested Finnish Army.

Q-Ball, keep the new detection rules in mind, which basically mean you can't identify Guards (and he can't identify the SS) unless they're next to the frontline in most cases.

I'm very happy that the practice of "recon shells" that is sometimes used in WitP is not a standard strategy for WitE, as "recon bombing" presumably shows you what the defending units are and how many men are in the hex. I never do any ground attacks with my air units myself, so I don't know if it would actually work.

Given his lack of offensive tempo, I have to believe his guards count is not real high. I just don't see how it can be to be honest and certainly not in any numbers where it could have a big impact in the early going.

I am very curious to see how this will play out because while you gave up some ground, he really didn't push the attack real hard either.

One thought on your command structure.  How are your leading assault troops for leadership?  You have the creme de la creme in place?