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I have a query. more of a philosophical line of query. Some people at another forum say that people wanting fact based OOBs whenever possible are "high priests" of grognardhood.

What I want to know is if whenever there is a judgement call on say how effective Tigers should "feel" is the baseline every Tiger should function like Wittman is in the crew?

What I mean is how is that a realistic benchmark for how "Tigers" should feel, or the position of Melvin that ATGs stopping entire tank platoons solo is somehow the benchmark?

Going down that path I guess we should have had Alvin York teach marksmanship to all our recruits and then the MG would be obsolete.

I dunno it just feels right.

Thing is a lot of us think that whenever possible OOBs should be 9 parts fact for 1 part "feel" since "feel" seems to be based a lot of the time on exceptional behavior and myth rather than an averaging of likely outcomes.

Then again maybe that is just me.

I think it is rather simple. Either the game tries to

1) model history, which means that OOBs should be based on more or less verifiable data,

2) or to model fantasy, which means that OOBs should be based on anecdotes and myths.

The problem with the former is that real values may not work with the game engine as desired. However if still strictly applied, we are dealing only with a systematic error that treats all the OOBs the same, which is very acceptable.

The problem with the latter is that it is impossible to systematically apply data from anecdotes and myths, since they are so varied and some of them even contradict each other.

Ok...I'm not an OoB expert by any means...but I am doing some research and have a question. In the OoB's I came across the following data for 37mm ATG's:

_________Ger Pak35/36____Pol wz.36____Czech vz.30____Finn 37 K/36
Max Range_____160_________160___________160__________160
Max APCR______72__________40*___________72___________72
Accuracy_______44__________48____________70*__________70*
Warhead_______2___________2_____________2____________3
HE Kill__________2___________2_____________2____________2

Pen Vaues
AP Pen_________64__________56____________43___________56
HE Pen_________12__________12____________11___________15
APCR___________94__________74____________71___________74
HEAT___________0___________0_____________0____________0

Research
Muzzle Vel_____762m/s______800m/s_________N/A________830m/s

Pen of 30
degree Armor:
at 500m______29-32mm____33-35mm________N/A_______33-37mm
at 1000m_____15-22mm____18-25mm________N/A_______18-28mm

Now from what I have been able to find on the net thus far it seems that ALL these weapons were modeled after the Bofors produced 3.7 cm ATG...so why the wide variance between the Polish wz.36 and the rest of them on the Max APCR range? And then why the jacked up Accuracy of the Czech and Finnish models?

If the Czech and Finnish versions are getting that big of a spike in accuracy for having an additional 30m/s on muzzle velocity...then the German accuracy should be even worse....right? Not to mention the German gun reportly has the lower of the historical penetration values of 30 degree sloped armor...yet has the best penetration value in the game.

I would love additional input from some gun gurus if possible to make light of any of this data...since it's just the tip of the iceberg for me.

Well AmmoSgt could have explained things a lot better but the only possible explanation if the hardware is the same is ammo.

Sven,

I could understand better quality German ammo allowing a better penetration value despite the inferior performance data of the PAK35/36 versus the others...but that would not account for the 25+ point advantage in the Czech and Finnish guns accuracy values if you ask me. As far as I know neither the Finns nor the Czechs were making ammo that was THAT superior to the rest of Europe.

These guns were all basically home-produced, lincensed, versions of the Swedish gun...and the Czech / Finnish guns did not employ better optics/ranging systems to their models as far as I can find...so it would still raise the question in my book what basis was used to determine such a hefty spike in accuracy?

Ohhh AmmoSgt....where are you????

Orzel, Sven sorry I can't help ya , I am not from the same planet as the data they have chosen to use. Ballistics vary from place to place throught the universe due to the effect of blackholes. I have pretty much written SPWAW off as a small niche game designed for a small number of folks that share the same fantasy land. I recomend taking a look at SPWII or SPMBT . The situtation here is beyond hope so long as the folks doing the work remain the same. how can folks who have never fired a cannon or even ridden in a armored vechcile say anything about feel without every selfrespecting honest person falling on their butt layghing is beyond me ...color me gone.
Look at the excellant points on ballistics, and performance, and History, even game mechanics folks have been making and look at the total BS answers you have been getting... time to cut your losses .

ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt

Orzel, Sven sorry I can't help ya , I am not from the same planet as the data they have chosen to use. Ballistics vary from place to place throught the universe due to the effect of blackholes. I have pretty much written SPWAW off as a small niche game designed for a small number of folks that share the same fantasy land. I recomend taking a look at SPWII or SPMBT . The situtation here is beyond hope so long as the folks doing the work remain the same. how can folks who have never fired a cannon or even ridden in a armored vechcile say anything about feel without every selfrespecting honest person falling on their butt layghing is beyond me ...color me gone.
Look at the excellant points on ballistics, and performance, and History, even game mechanics folks have been making and look at the total BS answers you have been getting... time to cut your losses .

I tend to agree with you here.

Unfortunately[:(]

But I still belive that it will be possibly to alter the results. I tend to belive that Matrix wouldn´t allow such a flawed perception of things to flourish.

ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt

Orzel, Sven sorry I can't help ya , I am not from the same planet as the data they have chosen to use. Ballistics vary from place to place throught the universe due to the effect of blackholes. I have pretty much written SPWAW off as a small niche game designed for a small number of folks that share the same fantasy land. I recomend taking a look at SPWII or SPMBT . The situtation here is beyond hope so long as the folks doing the work remain the same. how can folks who have never fired a cannon or even ridden in a armored vechcile say anything about feel without every selfrespecting honest person falling on their butt layghing is beyond me ...color me gone.
Look at the excellant points on ballistics, and performance, and History, even game mechanics folks have been making and look at the total BS answers you have been getting... time to cut your losses .

Ammo if you stay reasoned and present your case you can still accomplish something.

Please don't go.

First of all...

AmmoSgt please consider sticking around...it be a shame to lose someone with your knowledge. [:(]

Second of all...I'm beginning to wish I hadn't started poking around with the early 37mm ATG's because I'm becoming very confused with the data I pull from the OoB's against information I find on the web or in armament books. [X(]

Here is a data table of 37mm guns that were almost all patterned off of the Bofors 3.7cm ATG of 1935...although the Soviet obr.30 was a home-developed, up gunned piece based off of an earlier Bofors 25mm gun if my research is correct.

Anyway, what I see are numbers that are all over the place...I mean we have Bulgarian and Greek guns with the best Accuracy ratings...yet they have some of the worse penetration values.[&:] My understanding of ballistics would say that if their accuracy was that good then it was because their muzzle velocity was good...which should also mean that their penetration values were better. Even with sub-par quality ammo these two guns would have better penetration values than what is stated...or am I crazy to figure it that way?



*** NOTE!!!*** Goblin pointed out an error in the data box...the Soviet HE Kill should be 2 not 20...my apologies.

From experience and observation, I have to agree with Ammo.

Pointing out obvious errors nets no result, or increases the errors to other places. I have even been asked to do the OOB teams research for them, after pointing out mistakes, with them telling me that if they had to look up the mistakes, it would take away from other things. I am completely disheartened and frustrated by all of this. It really does feel good to just make the decision to sit out. Less stress, and most assuredly less Tums.

Goblin

ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt

Orzel, Sven sorry I can't help ya , I am not from the same planet as the data they have chosen to use. Ballistics vary from place to place throught the universe due to the effect of blackholes. I have pretty much written SPWAW off as a small niche game designed for a small number of folks that share the same fantasy land. I recomend taking a look at SPWII or SPMBT . The situtation here is beyond hope so long as the folks doing the work remain the same. how can folks who have never fired a cannon or even ridden in a armored vechcile say anything about feel without every selfrespecting honest person falling on their butt layghing is beyond me ...color me gone.
Look at the excellant points on ballistics, and performance, and History, even game mechanics folks have been making and look at the total BS answers you have been getting... time to cut your losses .

I hate to admit it, but you are right. I still try to defend my all-time favourite game though.

ORIGINAL: Keke

ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt

Orzel, Sven sorry I can't help ya , I am not from the same planet as the data they have chosen to use. Ballistics vary from place to place throught the universe due to the effect of blackholes. I have pretty much written SPWAW off as a small niche game designed for a small number of folks that share the same fantasy land. I recomend taking a look at SPWII or SPMBT . The situtation here is beyond hope so long as the folks doing the work remain the same. how can folks who have never fired a cannon or even ridden in a armored vechcile say anything about feel without every selfrespecting honest person falling on their butt layghing is beyond me ...color me gone.
Look at the excellant points on ballistics, and performance, and History, even game mechanics folks have been making and look at the total BS answers you have been getting... time to cut your losses .

I hate to admit it, but you are right. I still try to defend my all-time favourite game though.

Yeah, but it is becoming harder and harder.

Oh well, at least I can always throw WAPA out of Germany in MBT (Or reach the Rhine as the Soviets)[:D]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

Yeah, but it is becoming harder and harder.

Yup, that's why I installed SPWW2 for the very first time yesterday...

You got me into this Goblin...now I just can't walk away and ignore it. [:-]

The muzzle velocity of almost all of these guns ranged from 760m/s (meters per second) to 830m/s...with the vast majority of them coming in somewhere between 800-815m/s as an average. (so far only the PAK 35/36 and M35/36 were below the 775m/s threshold) To me that should mean most of their accuracy ratings should be fairly close to one another...and as everyone can plainly see they are not.

Better ammo might increase the range and result in better penetration values for some nationalities...but even that should not produce the varying difference in values that appear on the chart. To me they don't make a lot of sense...and although I am harping on the values of one weapon type it makes me wonder just how bad the problem might be in regard to the rest of the weapons in the game.

Hopefully this data chart will help serve as a visual aid to others reading these posts...so that they can better understand the points trying to be made here. To be honest...until I sat down and started digging into the numbers myself I finally realized that I had been overlooking how serious the problem might be.

Historical data must be the basis for the OoB's as much as humanly possible...and let "balance" be attained by players having to learn how to use weapons and units according to their strengths and weaknesses, rather than having the values altered to make the game "dumbed down" as it were.

ORIGINAL: Keke

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

Yeah, but it is becoming harder and harder.

Yup, that's why I installed SPWW2 for the very first time yesterday...

Heh. I play MBT almost exclusively.

But it´s still sad to see WaW go to hell. It was the game that introduced me to the world of SP MODs on the internet.

I have deleted 8.0+, and have no intention of installing WaW again in the near future. The "Secret Society" behind the latest OOB upgrades has made me do as I did.

It´s a shame really, because there was still some potential left in WaW. Now it looks as if it is irretrievably gone.

It saddens me [:(]

Rune buddy, don't go sour grapes on us, 7.1 is still out there and H2H is a fine game as well, your fun to read and are a wealth of knowledge. Much of what you are discussing will make it to the 8.2 I'm sure. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

ORIGINAL: Keke

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

Yeah, but it is becoming harder and harder.

Yup, that's why I installed SPWW2 for the very first time yesterday...

Heh. I play MBT almost exclusively.

But it´s still sad to see WaW go to hell. It was the game that introduced me to the world of SP MODs on the internet.

I have deleted 8.0+, and have no intention of installing WaW again in the near future. The "Secret Society" behind the latest OOB upgrades has made me do as I did.

It´s a shame really, because there was still some potential left in WaW. Now it looks as if it is irretrievably gone.

It saddens me [:(]

Is there a secret to getting MBT to work on XP? I seem to remember trying it once, and couldn't get anything to work. Maybe it was WW2.


Goblin

ORIGINAL: Goblin

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

ORIGINAL: Keke



Yup, that's why I installed SPWW2 for the very first time yesterday...

Heh. I play MBT almost exclusively.

But it´s still sad to see WaW go to hell. It was the game that introduced me to the world of SP MODs on the internet.

I have deleted 8.0+, and have no intention of installing WaW again in the near future. The "Secret Society" behind the latest OOB upgrades has made me do as I did.

It´s a shame really, because there was still some potential left in WaW. Now it looks as if it is irretrievably gone.

It saddens me [:(]

Is there a secret to getting MBT to work on XP? I seem to remember trying it once, and couldn't get anything to work. Maybe it was WW2.


Goblin

I run win 98, so I have no problem. Yet might consider asking on their Yahoo mailing list (where a lot of others have found help). Another common error is that some of the never graphicscards won´t show VGA graphics, which MBT runs in (or something like that, it has to do with the DOS graphics not showing up)

once you configue the sound, its *usually* foolproof.

But, go to the SP Camo site - they pretty much cover it in good enough detail...

ORIGINAL: VicKevlar

As I stated in "The Rules" thread.......there will be no editing or deleting of user's posts unless it is in regard to porn. Users who break the stated Matrix Forum policy will follow the normal course policing to include but not limited to warnings, thread being locked and given a reason as to why or in worst/last case scenarios...banning. The Matrix Forum policy applies to all users in all forums. Here it is for those who need a refresher...

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Hi Vic. I'm curious where you found this policy and when it originated. I had a situation a few months back where I was thinking someone was acting contrary to most conduct policies most of the better forums have, but I could not find ANY policy. I would think the general entrance to the forums would have a prominent place for that. Thanks.