Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:00 pm**

Saipan Coast defence units have too many guns and the wrong caliber for June 44.
The total for the 3 base forces and the CD regt (excluding AA guns) should be:

4 200mm antiboat
8 6"
20 120 mm (4.7")
32 total
rather than the 58 4.7 to 8" (200mm) they have in the scenario. The 8" weapon is actually not a gun but a large morter that was designed to drop indirect fire on the beaches. Page 232 of Denfeld has photo.

Only the 6" guns were effectve antiship weapons. As a historical note only 4 total hits were made on US ships during the Saipan landing, no tranports or landing craft were sunk - and only 20 LVT of the 719 used were destroyed. *see
http://www.mca-marines.org/Leatherneck/Saipan.htm

refs:
Edwin P. Hoyt To The Marianas, War in the Central Pacific: 1944
New York Van Norstrand Reinhold Company 1980

Hold the Marianas : the Japanese defense of the Mariana Islands • By: D Colt
Denfeld • Publisher: Shippensburg, PA, USA : White Mane Pub., ©1997
second ref is from Japansese sources

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:37 pm**

The SSVF? LCU unit north of Singapore in #15 is missing the item after the support. On mine it shows (7) 10 but no weapon system or anything. I do not have my game here or I would give the unit number eyc.

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:35 pm**

I don't know if I saw one but does the British Far Eastern Fleet have it's own HQ?

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:36 pm**

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

The 5th Brigade was sent home(?), somewhere, to be the cadre for a mechanized or armour division that was never formed.

I do not know at the moment where they were sent for this rearming & training.

The 2nd NZ fought in Italy with 2 brigades.

Mike

Hmmm...the official NZ history mentions the 5th Brigade in Italy several times; Monte Cassino, etc......

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:55 pm**

Hi,

Having looked through the OOB for the RAF a few suggestions for change
Scen 15

34 Sqd Blenheim IV upgrades to Wellington ------should upgrade to Hurricane II
60 Sqd Blenhiem I upgrades to Blenhiem IV --- should upgrade to Hurricane II
232 Sqd Hurricane II arriving Dacca 1/42 ----------should arrive Singapore 1/42
258 Sqd Hurricane II arriving Colombo 1/42 -------should arrive Colombo 3/42
605 Sqd Hurricane II arriving Dacca 1/42 ----------should arrive Palembang 1/42
11 Sqd Blenheim IV upgrades to Wellington ------should upgrade to Hurricane II
113 Sqd Blenheim IV upgrades to Wellington ------should upgrade to Hurricane II
30 Sqd Hurricane II arrives Calcutta 3/42 --------should arrive Colombo 3/42
45 Sqd Blenheim IV upgrades to Mosquito FB.----should upgrade to Vengeance I
152 Sqd Mohawk IV -----should be 155 Sqd
217 Sqd Hudson upgrades to Beaufighter VIC -----should upgrade to Beaufort I
54 Sqd Spitfire Vb arrives Trimcomalee 9/42------should arrive Melbourne 8/42
321 Sqd Catalina I arrives Dacca 9/42 -------------should arrive Colombo 8/42
42 Sqd Blenheim IV upgrades to Wellington ------should upgrade to Hurricane II
240 Sqd Catalina I arrives Dacca 10/42 ------------should arrive Madras 7/42
194 Sqd Hudson upgrades to Beaufighter VIC------should upgrade to Dakota I
20 Sqd Lysander arrives Calcutta 1/43 ------------should start on map at Delhi
22 Sqd Beafort I arrives Delhi 1/43 -------------should arrive Colombo 4/42
82 Sqd Vengeance I arrives Hyderabad 1/43----should arrive Karachi 5/43
as Blenheim IV
upgrade to Vengeance I
176 Sqd Beaufighter VIF arrives Trimcomalee 1/43 ----should arrive Calcutta 1/43
84 Sqd Vengeance I arrives Karachi 2/43--------Should arrive Paembang 1/42
as Blenheim IV
upgrades to Vengeance I
413 Sqd Catalina I arrives Trimcomalee 2/43----should arrive Colombo 4/42
110 Sqd Vengeance I arrives Trimcomalee 3/43 --should arrive Karachi
as Blenheim IV
upgrades to Vengeance I
89 Sqd Beaufighter VIF -----------------------------should upgrade to Mosquito FB
134 Sqd Hurricane II --------------------------------should upgrade to Thunderbolt
81 Sqd Spitfire VIII ----------------------------------should upgrade to Thunderbolt
123 Sqd Hurricane II --------------------------------should be Spitfire VIII
upgrades to Thunderbolt
548 Sqd Spitfire VIII arrives Karachi 4/44--------should arrive Brisbane 12/43
549 Sqd Spitfire VIII arrives Bombay 4/44-------should arrive Brisbane 12/43
618 Sqd Mosquito FB arrives Colombo 11/44-----should arrive Melbourne 12/44
131 Sqd Spitfire VIII--------------------------------should upgrade to Thunderbolt

Missing Squadrons
RAF
261 Sqd Hurricane II arrives Colombo 3/42
453 Sqd Buffalo I in Singerpore 12/41 ?? could be RAAF ??
684 Sqd Mosquito FB arrives Calcutta 9/43
681 Sqd Hurricane II arrives Calcutta 1/43

Royal Indian Airforce -

1 Sqd Lysander 12/41
2 Sqd Lysander 12/41
3 Sqd Hurricane II 9/43
4 Sqd Lysander 2/42
6 Sqd Hurricane II 12/42
7 Sqd Vengeance I 3/43 ----upgrades to Hurricane II
8 Sqd Vengeance I 6/43 ----upgrades to Hurricane II
9 Sqd Hurricane II ?
10 Sqd Hurricane II 2/44

RAAF -
No 8 RAAF Sqd in the OOB twice in slot 1158 and 1243

Ref:
RAF Squadrons - Wing Commander C.G.JEFFORD
Osprey - combat aircraft no. 5
Osprey - Aircraft of the Aces no. 57
The Forgotten Airforce - Air Commadore H.PROBERT
Bloody Shambles vol's 1 and 2
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/

Cheers

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:04 pm**

I have a small problem with the 11th BG stationed at Pearl Harbour. It is set to upgrade to B-17C's, but none are in the pool and none gets produced. Are they destined to fly Bolos through the hole war?

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:29 pm**

ORIGINAL: Iron Duke

Hi,

Having looked through the OOB for the RAF a few suggestions for change
Scen 15

34 Sqd Blenheim IV upgrades to Wellington ------should upgrade to Hurricane II
60 Sqd Blenhiem I upgrades to Blenhiem IV --- should upgrade to Hurricane II
232 Sqd Hurricane II arriving Dacca 1/42 ----------should arrive Singapore 1/42
258 Sqd Hurricane II arriving Colombo 1/42 -------should arrive Colombo 3/42
605 Sqd Hurricane II arriving Dacca 1/42 ----------should arrive Palembang 1/42
11 Sqd Blenheim IV upgrades to Wellington ------should upgrade to Hurricane II
113 Sqd Blenheim IV upgrades to Wellington ------should upgrade to Hurricane II
30 Sqd Hurricane II arrives Calcutta 3/42 --------should arrive Colombo 3/42
45 Sqd Blenheim IV upgrades to Mosquito FB.----should upgrade to Vengeance I
152 Sqd Mohawk IV -----should be 155 Sqd
217 Sqd Hudson upgrades to Beaufighter VIC -----should upgrade to Beaufort I
54 Sqd Spitfire Vb arrives Trimcomalee 9/42------should arrive Melbourne 8/42
321 Sqd Catalina I arrives Dacca 9/42 -------------should arrive Colombo 8/42
42 Sqd Blenheim IV upgrades to Wellington ------should upgrade to Hurricane II
240 Sqd Catalina I arrives Dacca 10/42 ------------should arrive Madras 7/42
194 Sqd Hudson upgrades to Beaufighter VIC------should upgrade to Dakota I
20 Sqd Lysander arrives Calcutta 1/43 ------------should start on map at Delhi
22 Sqd Beafort I arrives Delhi 1/43 -------------should arrive Colombo 4/42
82 Sqd Vengeance I arrives Hyderabad 1/43----should arrive Karachi 5/43
as Blenheim IV
upgrade to Vengeance I
176 Sqd Beaufighter VIF arrives Trimcomalee 1/43 ----should arrive Calcutta 1/43
84 Sqd Vengeance I arrives Karachi 2/43--------Should arrive Paembang 1/42
as Blenheim IV
upgrades to Vengeance I
413 Sqd Catalina I arrives Trimcomalee 2/43----should arrive Colombo 4/42
110 Sqd Vengeance I arrives Trimcomalee 3/43 --should arrive Karachi
as Blenheim IV
upgrades to Vengeance I
89 Sqd Beaufighter VIF -----------------------------should upgrade to Mosquito FB
134 Sqd Hurricane II --------------------------------should upgrade to Thunderbolt
81 Sqd Spitfire VIII ----------------------------------should upgrade to Thunderbolt
123 Sqd Hurricane II --------------------------------should be Spitfire VIII
upgrades to Thunderbolt
548 Sqd Spitfire VIII arrives Karachi 4/44--------should arrive Brisbane 12/43
549 Sqd Spitfire VIII arrives Bombay 4/44-------should arrive Brisbane 12/43
618 Sqd Mosquito FB arrives Colombo 11/44-----should arrive Melbourne 12/44
131 Sqd Spitfire VIII--------------------------------should upgrade to Thunderbolt

Missing Squadrons
RAF
261 Sqd Hurricane II arrives Colombo 3/42
453 Sqd Buffalo I in Singerpore 12/41
684 Sqd Mosquito FB arrives Calcutta 9/43
681 Sqd Hurricane II arrives Calcutta 1/43

Royal Indian Airforce -

1 Sqd Lysander 12/41
2 Sqd Lysander 12/41
3 Sqd Hurricane II 9/43
4 Sqd Lysander 2/42
6 Sqd Hurricane II 12/42
7 Sqd Vengeance I 3/43 ----upgrades to Hurricane II
8 Sqd Vengeance I 6/43 ----upgrades to Hurricane II
9 Sqd Hurricane II ?
10 Sqd Hurricane II 2/44

RAAF -
No 8 RAAF Sqd in the OOB twice in slot 1158 and 1243

Ref:
RAF Squadrons - Wing Commander C.G.JEFFORD
Osprey - combat aircraft no. 5
Osprey - Aircraft of the Aces no. 57
The Forgotten Airforce - Air Commadore H.PROBERT
Bloody Shambles vol's 1 and 2
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/

Cheers

Iron Duke,

Agree mostly, except all those Brit units should arrive in either Karachi or Bombay and the player made to move them to whereever. I dislike all these free deployments the worse is the free deployment of the Aussie Corps to Oz.

Also you missed.....

No.211 Sqd. (Blenhiems IV) should arrive approx. same time as 84 Sqd. (1/42)
No.242 Sqd. (HurricanesIIBs) should arrive 2/42

You are mistaken on No.258 Sqd. it arrived historically with the 232 sqd. Jan.42 (Both sqds. flew off the Indomitable and deployed to Palembang Sumatra. I think your confusion comes from the fact that in 3/42 a newly formed sqd. on Ceylon was renamed 258 after the original was lost in Java.

Regards.

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:08 pm**

Timjot,

Thanks for spotting my mistakes , on checking my rough notes i found all those points, must have just missed them when typing out the list.

cheers

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:06 pm**

Hmm...
one of the brigades was seperated for a time. It may have been during the Africa campaign.

Mike

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:37 pm**

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Hi all,

I just noticed this...
Didn't the British send a West African or East African brigade to Ceylon as garrison shortly after the war started? And remember, this brigade was combat experianced.

I am unsure of whether to add it as i do not know if it is incorporated in the East & West African divisions that enter in '44.

Mike

Hi Mike,

The 21st East African Brigade became part of the 11th East African Division (along with the 25th and 26th E.A. Bdes). So if the 11th Division is in the game, the brigade should not be represented separately.

I would not overstate the Bde's combat experience. It garrisoned a coastal town vs. the Italians in Somalialand, and was evacuated by sea. It participated in Cunningham's advance into Italian territory, but apparently did not see much combat. After arriving in Ceylon is was given two years (!!) worth of jungle training before being deployed to Burma.

Posted: **Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:45 pm**

4th fleet and southeast fleet should be Command Headqurters, but they are listed as fleet Headquarters in scenario 15.

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:46 am**

Since the arrival of US Essex and Independence class carriers doesn't reflect historical data I have again researched the historical arrival of these ships in either the west coast or PH. Actually I use the departure date from a west coast port or 7 days earlier than the PH arrival date for the entry date at SF. I'm doing the same thing the WitP designers did and use the names of the Essex carriers that were built during or shortly after the war in order of earliest arrival so we get the exact same list but the order isn't exactly the same. The way I'm setting the arrival dates is exactly when an Essex class carrier would have arrived at SF for deployment. I will also include the dates that the replacement carriers that the game respawns can be deployed, they start in April, 1945 so any respawned carrier should be held in a west coast port until those dates.

Date Ship
23 May 43 Essex
17 Jul 43 Bunker Hill
2 Aug 43 Intrepid
1 Oct 43 Franklin
3 Jan 44 Hancock
1 Mar 44 Ticonderoga
28 Mar 44 Bennington
1 Jun 44 Randolph
14 Sep 44 Shangri-La
17 Sep 44 Bon Homme Richard
1 Jan 45 Antietam
20 Jan 45 Boxer
7 Feb 45 Lake Champlain
7 Apr 45 REPLACEMENT
12 Jun 45 REPLACEMENT
15 Aug 45 REPLACEMENT
7 Oct 45 REPLACEMENT

Those are all the Essex class carriers that were historically available during the timeframe of the game however should anyone lose all 6 of the prewar carriers the US could easily have finished the extra 2 respawned carriers and I would add 1 in Nov 45 and the other one in Dec 45.

Date Ship
14 Jul 43 Independence
19 Jul 43 Belleau Woods
1 Aug 43 Princeton
12 Sep 43 Cowpens
15 Oct 43 Monterey
25 Nov 43 Cabot
1 Jan 44 Langley
1 Apr 44 Bataan
1 Apr 44 San Jacinto

The biggest difference between these dates and the game dates is in the early arrival of the entire Independence class by 4 to 5 months. The biggest error with the Essex class is the 4 month early arrival of the Essex itself. For anyone wanting to make these changes themselves some of the arrival dates are very close together so you might want to combine their arrival to the same date.

If the arrival dates used in WitP are the same as those used in Pac War it would explain why I was always about 4 months ahead of the historical timeline, the Essex carrier and the entire Independence class of light carriers were comming into the game 4 months early.

Just for the record I'm an Allied fanboy but the Japanese fanboys can thank me anytime.

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:17 am**

Yunan (in China) is also the name of a province. The map should use a city name instead. It looks weird if you replace "San Francisco" with "California".

BTW, many city names in China on the map look weird to me. For example, Homan, Yenen, etc. I cannot understand which cities they are meant to be. (I am a native Mandarin speaker.) I don't know where do those spellings come from. [&:] Double check on all of the city names in China will be a prudent act.

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:29 am**

I messed up and posted separate threads for

The Hawaii Separate Coast Defense Brigade
The (astonishing) Coast Defenses of the Tsushima Straits
and two others for the 12 inch and 8 inch coast defense batteries not in the game

Also one thread on 8 inch AAA found at Singapore not long ago (unknown Japanese 8 inch weapons)

and one thread on the L2D2 - the Japanese C-47 - the most important civil and naval transport plane - the civil ones being pressed into military service.

I had not noticed this thread. I looked but missed it.

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:32 am**

Not a single detail is correct for Alaska.

Anchorage is located at Kenai instead of at the top of Cook Inlet.

Kodiak island is missing altogether and Kodiac is shown, incorrectly, on another island.

The 1940 proposal to build a road to Nome is built in the game - never went beyond Fairbanks - even today! Fairbanks is missing.

The trail to Nome is presumably the Ididerod trail. This should not exist. It is only passable in winter - and not very passable then. Unless you can drive dogsleds on rivers, it does not work most of the time. And no, winter is not that long in southern Alaska.

Needless to say, I live in Alaska.

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:40 am**

I only see the Chitose upgrades in the game. Well, and ise/hyuga increase seaplane capacity.

Argentina Maru and Brazil Maru should be able to convert to Kaiyo class. [One was, the other was sunk before conversion]

All the battleships were designed for conversion to full carriers and to semi carriers. All older battleships were designed for conversion to expand seaplane capacity. And Mogami also had seaplane capacity increased.

Scharnhorst (an AP of German origin) converted to Shinyo (CVE).

Chichibu Maru class liners were designed to convert to Kamakurea Maru CVE.

Mizuho and Nisshin were designed to convert to CVLs - complete with new engines - and could easily be represented by Chitose class.

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:45 pm**

ORIGINAL: elcid

Not a single detail is correct for Alaska.

Anchorage is located at Kenai instead of at the top of Cook Inlet.

Kodiak island is missing altogether and Kodiac is shown, incorrectly, on another island.

The 1940 proposal to build a road to Nome is built in the game - never went beyond Fairbanks - even today! Fairbanks is missing.

The trail to Nome is presumably the Ididerod trail. This should not exist. It is only passable in winter - and not very passable then. Unless you can drive dogsleds on rivers, it does not work most of the time. And no, winter is not that long in southern Alaska.

Needless to say, I live in Alaska.

Not one detail?[:)]

Posted: **Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:00 pm**

Since the Baltimore class heavy and Cleveland class light cruisers are treated similar to the Essex class carriers, I am including a replacement timetable for anyone wishing to keep the arrival dates historical. The game replaces American and Australian CAs sunk before 1944 with either Baltimore class CAs or Cleveland class CLs 550 days after loss. I haven't checked the Cleveland arrival dates in the game yet but the Baltimore, Alaska, and Iowa class ships arrival dates are correct so I trust the CLs will be as well. This rule works because 7 CAs were lost historically during the time frame referenced and 3 Baltimore CAs plus 4 Cleveland CLs carry lost cruiser names that served during the war. However there were 10 cruisers named for war losses, three of them being CLs so the rule isn't exactly accurate. I'm not recommending any replacement schedule for any Cleveland CL being respawned because 21 served during the war out of a total 27 that were finally finished as CLs and the game already has 18 listed as replacements. There were numerous Cleveland CLs canceled and 7, whose keels were laid, scrapped so if they were needed they would have been finished. For the Baltimore CAs I would do the same thing that was done for the Essex class carriers, hold them in west coast ports until the replacement dates listed below.

Date Ship
13 Jan 45 REPLACEMENT
23 May 45 REPLACEMENT
1 Jun 45 REPLACEMENT
13 Nov 45 REPLACEMENT
7 Dec 45 REPLACEMENT
7 Dec 45 REPLACEMENT
20 Jan 46 REPLACEMENT

The first 3 dates represent ships that served during the war and the last 4 are ships that went to the PTO after the war ended.

Posted: **Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:15 am**

Not really an oob error, but if possible allow us to split the air regiments.

Posted: **Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:47 am**

VP-21 was at Midway with PBYs on 12/7/41. OOB for Scenario 15 has it arriving in 1944.

Don

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