Matrix Games Forums

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Spooky

Don't worry, the site is not going to be closed [;)]

_GREAT_ - thanks !

Your site was always (since very early UV days) on my daily list of WWW sites to visit... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
My regular UV PBEM opponent (we even now play UV PBEMs) is Mario Valle - I think you know him.

Apollo11,

I think this scenario editor is quite well built. If I were to ask for one piece of added functionality it would be a button that upgrades all ships or airgroups to their coresponding class values.

I hate modding an american destroyer class and then having to mod 67 individual ships as well.
Also, it is a huge risk for bugs; when i redo the ships i just click the ship name, click the class to bring up the class list and click on the same name.
But if i slip slightly i end up with a different classs. I have already done this a couple of times as i get editing in a hurry.

Mike

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
It distorts the game historically.

History goes out the window as soon as I enter orders and the random number generator gets involved in resolving the first turn. We can adhere closely to the realities of WW2, but we can't reproduce it. And why would we want to? I can go read books if I want that. The problem with this rule is that it crosses the line between adhering to the realities and enforcing history on a situation that differs from history.

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
As a player you know the capabilities of each aircraft and can decide well in advance which will be best suited for you needs… this is based on data based on hindsight. The Japanese didn’t know in January of 1942 how good the Frank was going to be, yet the player does. There were reasons why the Japanese continued to field Oscars throughout the war… political, military, economic, etc… free upgrade paths ignores these restraints. One can see these restrains when one looks at how changing leaders or moving unit from restricted commands works.

This is why I am against research. I already know when I am going to get it and how good it will be. "Researching" in this case just isn't right imo. House rules can take care of this from my perspective: No additions to factories til after a plane goes into production, and no research beyond that conducted at the start.

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
I think the present system is the developer’s way of stopping the old non-historical tactic in PacWar where every Allied Groups was fly P-40s by mid-1942. It is a very good tactic in the game, but could never have been done in real life.

Restricting that is fine, as long as it doesn't interfere with making choices consistent with the events of the game. In my mind, the major problem here arises from a situation in which the Japanese do better than history and manage to get more advanced aircraft produced than they did historically. The "historical" limitations to airgroups becomes a major point for the Japanese player.

I would support a BTR style upgrade path limited by IJA/IJN divisions and with a PP cost to upgrade outside of the existing path. It would be appropriate to have additional costs for moving between subtypes - fighter bomber/fighter/float fighter or engine configurations - 1/2/4 engine.

Alternatively, I would support upgrade paths that provided more advanced aircraft as terminal upgrades with the added ability to choose the "upgrade". The list of choices should include all active upgrades and ancestors of the most advanced active upgrade. By active I mean the aircraft is being produced.

Well at least I now understand what the J players are grousing about. Maybe the limits reflect someone's judgment as to the ability of the Japanese to retrain air groups from the use of some pokey stunt plane to more current designs. In effect -- "sure you can build 1000 of model Z but you can only retrain pilots from model Y at a rate of ten pilots per month" or something. At an abstract level this would to a certain degree correctly reflect the fact that Japan's inability to train pilots was not merely limited to training new pilots but also for providing facilities, instructors, and fuel for familiarizing old pilots with new aircraft.

That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.

Leo -

Is that Croatian thingie an ex Texas-class or something? And forgive me for not recognizing those things sticking out .. are they torpedo net spars or just -- well, since it is the Croatian navy... err, hmmm, oars? [;)]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.

Hmmm ... getting some new Essex-CV in replacement of sunk US CV - isn't it some kind of production reponse to the circumstances [8|] And please do not forget that the Pacific Theater was secondary compared with the European one - so the main US plane R&D and production decision were decided by how the war was going on in Europe and not in the Pacific.

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Well at least I now understand what the J players are grousing about. Maybe the limits reflect someone's judgment as to the ability of the Japanese to retrain air groups from the use of some pokey stunt plane to more current designs. In effect -- "sure you can build 1000 of model Z but you can only retrain pilots from model Y at a rate of ten pilots per month" or something. At an abstract level this would to a certain degree correctly reflect the fact that Japan's inability to train pilots was not merely limited to training new pilots but also for providing facilities, instructors, and fuel for familiarizing old pilots with new aircraft.

That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.

And thats why it is not an option. Japan brings new air groups online with new aircraft. They simply do not have the resources to do this and upgrade all the old aircraft as well. Couple this with their massive pilots shortage and you start getting a realistic feel for Japan. Toss that out the window and let you build any aircraft you want and assign them to any group you want and suddenly Japan is not only winning the game, but winning the war.

Upgrading groups outside the bounds of the controls put in place renders the entire Japanese production problems with aircraft gone which is just nuts. You want that, I guess we need to go through the aircraft and tone down all the late war japanese specs to reality levels instead of planned values. Also need to add about 50 more engine factory types just to bring you guys into check ... you want plane x, you need to retool to make the engine for it too. Most of Japan's aircraft were created out of combinations of parts due to production shortages.

Also need to add the hundreds of sub types and force you to research through them to get to the real production aircraft to prevent the gamey "i'm just going to convert everything to A7W's so I don't need to spend anything on other then those factories".

Btw: as a point of humor, you might remember that I am a Axis Fanboy. That should give you pause for thought. [:D]

Army Air Force plane design would be based on Europe, but I don't think the USN/USMC design would be. Their primary focus was always the PTO.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Well at least I now understand what the J players are grousing about. Maybe the limits reflect someone's judgment as to the ability of the Japanese to retrain air groups from the use of some pokey stunt plane to more current designs. In effect -- "sure you can build 1000 of model Z but you can only retrain pilots from model Y at a rate of ten pilots per month" or something. At an abstract level this would to a certain degree correctly reflect the fact that Japan's inability to train pilots was not merely limited to training new pilots but also for providing facilities, instructors, and fuel for familiarizing old pilots with new aircraft.

That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.

And thats why it is not an option. Japan brings new air groups online with new aircraft. They simply do not have the resources to do this and upgrade all the old aircraft as well. Couple this with their massive pilots shortage and you start getting a realistic feel for Japan. Toss that out the window and let you build any aircraft you want and assign them to any group you want and suddenly Japan is not only winning the game, but winning the war.

Upgrading groups outside the bounds of the controls put in place renders the entire Japanese production problems with aircraft gone which is just nuts. You want that, I guess we need to go through the aircraft and tone down all the late war japanese specs to reality levels instead of planned values. Also need to add about 50 more engine factory types just to bring you guys into check ... you want plane x, you need to retool to make the engine for it too. Most of Japan's aircraft were created out of combinations of parts due to production shortages.

Also need to add the hundreds of sub types and force you to research through them to get to the real production aircraft to prevent the gamey "i'm just going to convert everything to A7W's so I don't need to spend anything on other then those factories".

Btw: as a point of humor, you might remember that I am a Axis Fanboy. That should give you pause for thought. [:D]

Then that's what should be done.

However, until such time as that happens, the current way things are handled is silly. You can keep a multitude of groups in their current low tier aircraft models and then suddenly, provided you have the stocks/supplies built up, change all of them at once. So much for the idea of re-training to a new aircraft type in that case.

The situation still stands as being a waste of time and effort. There is no reason to research in any greater quantity newer aircraft because once they come online, they either can't be used or can only be used in small numbers regardless of the amount in stockpiles and the losses being suffered.

Hmmm ... getting some new Essex-CV in replacement of sunk US CV - isn't it some kind of production reponse to the circumstances And please do not forget that the Pacific Theater was secondary compared with the European one - so the main US plane R&D and production decision were decided by how the war was going on in Europe and not in the Pacific.

The Essex class argument isn't what we're talking about and is a poor example. Matrix has simply assumed that ships that were already scheduled for production would indeed be built through completion.

As to the Pacific, the solutions that were good in the ETO were good in the PTO as well. Indeed, given the longer ranges generally attendant in the PTO one would want yet more drop-tank equipped P-51s, P-47s, and P38s. Even the top of the line late war Japanese a/c were not quite up to the standards of ETO aircraft. So whatever you make to counter the FW-190s will work even better, for example, against Ki-84s and Ki-100s.

Of course, that's not really what Japanese aficionados want to hear. They want to hear "Yes, you can build and man hundreds of Ki-84s by 1944 but you won't have to face F4Us on CVs until some time in 1945."

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated........

Congratulations on lashing out and buying the game.

OK, I'm curious since this is the first post I've seen complaining about late war Jap a/c being better than they should. Are you seeing some unrealistic combat results in a late war scenario or something?

Btw: as a point of humor, you might remember that I am a Axis Fanboy. That should give you pause for thought.

I am mildly surprised to hear you arguing the points that you have made in this thread. You are hereby reclassified to "Member: Axis Booster Club" status. [:D]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Of course, that's not really what Japanese aficionados want to hear. They want to hear "Yes, you can build and man hundreds of Ki-84s by 1944 but you won't have to face F4Us on CVs until some time in 1945."

No, I just want to be able to use the planes I build the way I want (within some limits) - is it that hard to understand [:@]
I am not talking about Ki-84 or F4U on CVs.

ORIGINAL: Spooky
No, I just want to be able to use the planes I build the way I want (within some limits) - is it that hard to understand [:@]
I am not talking about Ki-84 or F4U on CVs.

Yes it seems it is hard for certain people to understand. Its gone from you want f18's to lets nerf late war jap aircraft with stops everywhere along the way. Real odd the way they keep mistating whats being asked for to buttress thier arguements.

yep - some here do not want the possibility for "japanese" players... if you play the japs you are a fanboy... so everything that improve the situation is "ahistorical"...

nobody said that you should be easily able to produce 1000s of ki84s... but if i manage to do so, i want to equip my groupswith it, esp. if they otherwise can only fly the nate... also the same is true for the p40-crap versus thunderbolts/mustang thing... sure, historically some groups flew them until the end, but hindsight here hindsight there, NOBODY can tell me that if i can use "better" planes (and i hope we all agree that the p51 mustang WAS better as the p40 [:D]) cause i have lots of them in the stockpile i do ignore it and even worse, if i have only a few worser planes, my groups will NOT be updated.... sorry, that sound not really smart for me.

My idea of reequiped air groups is that you only can do it at certain places (for example size10 airports) and that you will loose experience points (differ from the type... zero2 to zero 3 nil, zero 2 to shinden say 15POINTS (no percentage, so it hurts you really)) or even better, you have to DISBAND em (and you loose 90 days....)
This should be true for both sides (again, the same planetyp, just another version should be upgradeable like now)... and navy = navy and army = army and also bomber=bomber and fighter/fighterbomber=fighterbomber...

is it ahistorical ? yes... but the whole game is fully ahistorical from turn one... so no problem, cause we use historical things and try to do better... and this should be possible with both sides...

it is true that japan will loose, but if i do better as the jap, i should have the chance to let the allied pay much more as they payed in 44/45.... and it seems to me that the fanboygroup want to avoid it... (or, for the japanese fanboys to invade frisco...) both is not smart... and take the fun out of it... but as i mentioned earlier, we have the editor and we should have enough good people to create nearly perfect scenarios without bashing the designer... "we" (i mean the people who disagree to this strict rules) can live with it and if "we" are so many that nobody will play other scenarios per pbem, maybe something will change..

so take it easy and be happy... [:D][:)]

we should not forget that this IS a great game
and i can only advice to buy and to play it..
have fun

That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.

Nevermind...deleted due to irrelevance!

The problem we have here is Matrix came down right in the middle of this issue, and thereby ticked off BOTH camps!

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
And thats why it is not an option. Japan brings new air groups online with new aircraft. They simply do not have the resources to do this and upgrade all the old aircraft as well. Couple this with their massive pilots shortage and you start getting a realistic feel for Japan. Toss that out the window and let you build any aircraft you want and assign them to any group you want and suddenly Japan is not only winning the game, but winning the war.

All of this is based upon conditions which existed historically, but might not exist in game. As such, they aren't even worthy of consideration. You got it wrong when you said, "They simply do not have the resources to do this and upgrade all the old aircraft as well. " They didn't historically. You have no idea what they have in the game until it happens.

History goes out the f'in window the moment we begin entering turns and resolve the results with the help of the RNG. I could run out of resources in 42 if I FUBAR the SRA attack or get unlucky. I could have resources well into 44 if I get lucky, handle the SRA perfectly, babysit the economy, and manage a few decisive victories against Allied CV's. An extra couple tankers of oil, a couple extra bulk carriers of ore, Saipan, et al lost later than they were historically lost and Japan's world changes. They still lose, but advanced aircraft arrive in greater numbers to equip more squadrons.

I am mildly surprised to hear you arguing the points that you have made in this thread. You are hereby reclassified to "Member: Axis Booster Club" status.

While I happen to be a Axis Fanboy, I prefer to win on my own with the crap that was available, not double the forces at the disposal. It just doesn't sit well with me that we are simply glossing over the completely well known reality of Japan's aircraft production numbers and their massive problems making anything of quality.

There was a reason they couldn't make a thousand A8M's ... and it had nothing to do with the state of their factories from Allied bombing (which was shown after the war to be largely ineffective - based on the USAAF post war studies).

Japan simply did not have the skilled manpower, the production abilities, the raw goods, and so on and so on.

They fielded what they could based on what they had. We have a grossly simplified model and people are neglecting the reality completely and saying lets just add this little interface toggle to let me do this because they are hung up on the interface mechanics of the game which has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

If you want to go down this path, fine, I have no issue with it BUT I expect it to be done *right* with all the *real* inhibiters that *REALY* controlled Japan's outcome, not some little box that lets you pick any aircraft there was and just start researching it and magically get it before any of the preceeding aircraft that made it possible have been created.

Half of Japan's aircraft are not even real aircraft, they are a future aircraft with a past aircraft engine because thats all there was available. These threads completely gloss over reality and are hung up on a silly picklist. Unless that level of simulation is available to make half aircraft (which most of the aircraft past '42 are), then this becomes so gamey it is embarrassing.

It's like saying that Germany *knowing* the Panther was the best tank didn't make any other and went straight there instead of wasting time.

Japan simply did not have the skilled manpower, the production abilities, the raw goods, and so on and so on.

Well, that's the answer then. All we need are 3 little toggles (like the "Japanese Sub Doctrine" switches.

"Japanese Skilled Manpower On/Off"
"Japanese Massive Production Infrastructure On/Off"
"Japanese have lots of raw goods On/Off"


Do you think that can be put on the wish list? [:)]

"Japanese Skilled Manpower On/Off"
"Japanese Massive Production Infrastructure On/Off"
"Japanese have lots of raw goods On/Off"

As long as it also is countered by:

"Allied PTO First On/Off"